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 41 
 on: May 16, 2015, 10:49:04 AM 
Started by Ashe Isadora - Last post by Ashe Isadora
Some people don't have the time or inclination to delve deeply into their relationship with the gods, but enjoy the trappings of paganism, festivals, like minded friends and enjoying the pagan milieu.  They may not see themselves as clergy at all, and don't wish to be.

 42 
 on: May 16, 2015, 10:36:27 AM 
Started by Ashe Isadora - Last post by C_A
Are there any here who honestly don't want the responsibility of the priesthood?  Do you think there should be more of a niche for pagan laity?

While the conferrence is, to be sure, an honor it is also a responsibility that some don't want.  I don't recall anyone being coerced.  Can you elaborate on the laity angle?

 43 
 on: May 16, 2015, 10:26:26 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by Ashe Isadora
You're very welcome!  Keep us up to date on what you find out.

 44 
 on: May 16, 2015, 10:18:59 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by Mokey
The trouble, Mokey, is that the well of information on the intersections of Christian and Pagan history has been well and truly poisoned, on the internet and in popular Neopagan books.

There's some truth in your article but it needs to be tempered with scholarly research to thread out the facts.  A good resource might be a site for Celtic Reconstructionists.  CR's are very invested in historical accuracy about the relationship of early Christianity and Paganism in the British Isles, and they could help you sift through your thoughts on this topic as well as tell you which sources are reliable - and which are tainted or just fluff.

Believing every popular notion about Pagan/Christian history that we read in Neopagan sites and books can be very seductive, but it's a HUGE pitfall. Be discriminating, and check and recheck your sources.

Thank you, I most certainly will.

 45 
 on: May 16, 2015, 10:17:36 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by Mokey
Quote
I also had a problem with the article. Saints were not considered gods even in Catholicism, but go betweens.



Of course Christians don't consider them God's themselves. I don't expect actual Christians to agree with me. Heck, most haven't even studied their own religion, and I'm not trying to Christian bash, but  most of them have not actually read their own bible, studied their own history, etc...

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/September/Most-Christians-Dont-Read-the-Bible-Much/



The saints filled role of the need for multiple deities, in societies which have been polytheist for thousands of years. Even the angels in the bible were originally God's. El, Semitic meaning god or deity, so I present you
Michael
Gabriel
Uriel
Raphael
Castiel


http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/eden.htm


One could even argue Rachael, who wasn't an angel, but a prominent female character in Jewish religions.


God's are very resourceful, able to survive sometimes even their own people. The stories of the gods are retold in some form or another. That itself is a tribute to their power. Hence why there are so many God's and new God's based off of olds God'scan even fully transform into a different deity.

This article goes into detail of the evolution of Aphrodite. http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/intriguing-origins-aphrodite-002170

Why would the saints be any different? Most of them did exist as real people. It's been a time honored tradition transforming a deceased ancestor into a god, however the church didn't allow it, so they were now saints. They come with lessons, stories, magic powers in some form, symbols, food, plants, holidays, there are statues of them, they have their own prayers, etc... their belongings and even body parts are still believed to hold magic powers. They even respectfully have temples in their honor, i.e. churches. The Christians are often unaware of the significance, but it is there, nonetheless.


I personally have experienced muses, enough for my personally held belief. The same concept that put the song in the head of those retelling the story. Seeing old stories being retold, shows these muses have never stopped working. My personal spiritual belief, by all means.


Quote
Also the whole star wars thing started off as an archetypical comparison exercise. It wasn't intended as a deity replacement system. People have ways of picking things like this up and running with them as fast and far as they can, often passing off to those of less humor or study in the matter. Television is fun and on occasion can be educational but over all isn't the best thing to lean on in any kind of article meant to teach as even some documentaries can be dodgy these days.

Well a lot of modern people are rejecting traditional spirituality. I've noticed with atheist or non spiritaul people, that the role of God is often replaced with a cultural icon. Some who once lived like Carl Sagan, Buddha, for example. Some complete fiction, like the Lord of the rings, dare I say Spider-Man... yes may seem shocking and shallow, but yet old spidie here has survived several generations already. Now not just beloved by children, but their parents as well. He is the tragic hero, with a new version of the story.


I'm not saying Spider-Man is worshipped, but his story is told and retold and if successful stories of Spider-Man will existed long after everyone we know has past on. Respectfully that is often how it starts. Sagan being the wonderful astronomer, will still be quoted and studied, even when most of his work is outdated, much like Einstein and Freud. Aristotle and Hypathia have been around long enough, that I've met people who have added them to their personal deities . Before you jump, please let me finish. Now though humans being worshipped as God's is nothing new, I wouldn't call theses examples as God's, but they have achieved a level of immortality.

Quote
Modern information is never the end point, only the beginning. It's important to  dig back through history and find older texts from authors well known for their scholarship. If making comparisons to modern characters helps a person relate then so be it, but don't gloss over what's really there.

You are completely right. That I will work on.

thank you all for your honesty

I did write another article on that. I didn't think you guys would want to see it.

 46 
 on: May 16, 2015, 09:48:58 AM 
Started by Ashe Isadora - Last post by Ashe Isadora
Are there any here who honestly don't want the responsibility of the priesthood?  Do you think there should be more of a niche for pagan laity?

 47 
 on: May 16, 2015, 09:05:30 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by Ashe Isadora
The trouble, Mokey, is that the well of information on the intersections of Christian and Pagan history has been well and truly poisoned, on the internet and in popular Neopagan books.

There's some truth in your article but it needs to be tempered with scholarly research to thread out the facts.  A good resource might be a site for Celtic Reconstructionists.  CR's are very invested in historical accuracy about the relationship of early Christianity and Paganism in the British Isles, and they could help you sift through your thoughts on this topic as well as tell you which sources are reliable - and which are tainted or just fluff.

Believing every popular notion about Pagan/Christian history that we read in Neopagan sites and books can be very seductive, but it's a HUGE pitfall. Be discriminating, and check and recheck your sources.

 48 
 on: May 16, 2015, 08:09:28 AM 
Started by Mystik Witch - Last post by Arnemetia
Very well said Twixt.

 49 
 on: May 16, 2015, 06:59:15 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by C_A
I also had a problem with the article. Saints were not considered gods even in Catholicism, but go betweens.

 Do or don't discuss your pagan faith but true understanding doesn't come from making shaky and sometimes flat out false comparisons.

Also the whole star wars thing started off as an archetypical comparison exercise. It wasn't intended as a deity replacement system. People have ways of picking things like this up and running with them as fast and far as they can, often passing off to those of less humor or study in the matter.



Indeed.

Indeed.

Star Wars, Dune, Beowulf....

 50 
 on: May 16, 2015, 06:56:17 AM 
Started by Mokey - Last post by C_A

Please explain which facts were wrong. If there is something wrong, ill be more than happy to correct the error. However having reviewed my article, I don't see what is so wrong with it. I've studies saints and different God's for decades myself, I immediately saw a connection in my studies I felt was worth sharing. I didn't come here to offend anyone, but share what I learned and of course learn more myself. Continue studies is never ending task, which I do regularly.

As far as what is "wrong", well...I'm not going to do your research for you.  I'd be curious as to whom you refer when you say "known for their scholarship", to compare notes if we find authors in common.  As far as "offense", well...I'm not.  But, finding a connection and proving that connection are two very different things.  That's why higer education grads have to "defend" their theses and dissertations before a board of peers.


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