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[lilpnkbnny]

"And that anyone confess their knowledge, be it true, for bribe or by torture, cursed of the G-ds shall they be.  And reborn according to the ways of the Wice shall they not be, but to the hell of the Christians shall their Spirit be consigned for Eternity, as that is just."

Christians were usually the ones doing the persecuting right? I understood this to mean that if you give up your covens secrets, you would be damned to follow the path of those you fear most. Sort of like...... If you let them win, then they do. Now you go to the hell that they said you would.

[blue]

"And that anyone confess their knowledge, be it true, for bribe or by torture, cursed of the G-ds shall they be.  And reborn according to the ways of the Wice shall they not be, but to the hell of the Christians shall their Spirit be consigned for Eternity, as that is just."

 I tend to view it within the context of the time and the place.

 Also ... while Masonry as a tradition predates Wicca by quite a bit of time, and they are separate and distinct things from one another, the forms are remarkably similar.

 If you look at Freemasonry it was founded somewhere back around the 1500's. There's a system of three degrees where an oath and obligation is administered at each of the degrees. Along with the oaths are the prescribed penalties for a violation of those of those oaths of secrecy.

 Now consider the time and place: 1500's Protestant Europe. The level of education is fairly poor, despite the influence of Christianity fear and superstition are prevalent. Now ... consider the penalties of violating one's oath and they're fine tuned to be particularly horrific to a person from the Christian culture of that time.

 Nowadays ... they'll tell you right from the start that these oaths & obligations are ONLY symbolic. It's a different age and a different place. There's no longer the need for such tight security. In fact ... almost all of the secret stuff is out in the public domain now.

 Let's compare this to Wicca: It was likely founded sometime during the 40's & 50's in Protestant England. The church wielded great control over society and the laws of the land were a reflection of that. Much as the AF&AM was was really out there on the edge back in it's time early Wiccan practices were very extreme for their day. They had to be damned careful to keep their rites and rituals private.

 Add to that .... there was most likely a firm belief in the " Burning Times " and the persecution of witches. It creates an atmosphere of paranoia and an US vs THEM mentality.

 It makes sense to me that the founders of Wicca would have fine tuned their penalty to be particularly frightening to a Witch because at the time there was a lot at stake. It also makes sense that some kind of cell structure was put into place so that if one or two were discovered it wouldn't take the whole organization down.

 Here we are now fifty or sixty years into the future. The times have changed and society as a whole has changed. The anti witchcraft laws have been struck down. The myth of the burning times has been largely disproven. Just about everything about the secret rituals of Wicca can be laid bare for all to see and yet the mysteries will still remain incomprehensible to those who have not rightfully earned their understandings by their own merit.

 I think it begs the question ... are the penalties of one's oath merely symbolic now ?

[blue moon]

OMGorsh.

The profound importance of acknowledging symbolism is magnified because of the fact that supposed myths and legends are based on truth. And most secrets are completely out in the open, exposed, hence the public indecency, however, for the most part things are veiled in such a way that blue is completely right about it being earned accordingly to one's own merit. Perhaps the biggest secret is that 'there are no secrets' just forgotten and/or repressed/suppressed knowledge. Perhaps not.

Anyways, thank you so much for this topic, C_A. <3

 

[C_A]

I tend to view it within the context of the time and the place.

 Also ... while Masonry as a tradition predates Wicca by quite a bit of time, and they are separate and distinct things from one another, the forms are remarkably similar.

 If you look at Freemasonry it was founded somewhere back around the 1500's. There's a system of three degrees where an oath and obligation is administered at each of the degrees. Along with the oaths are the prescribed penalties for a violation of those of those oaths of secrecy.

 Now consider the time and place: 1500's Protestant Europe. The level of education is fairly poor, despite the influence of Christianity fear and superstition are prevalent. Now ... consider the penalties of violating one's oath and they're fine tuned to be particularly horrific to a person from the Christian culture of that time.

 Nowadays ... they'll tell you right from the start that these oaths & obligations are ONLY symbolic. It's a different age and a different place. There's no longer the need for such tight security. In fact ... almost all of the secret stuff is out in the public domain now.

 Let's compare this to Wicca: It was likely founded sometime during the 40's & 50's in Protestant England. The church wielded great control over society and the laws of the land were a reflection of that. Much as the AF&AM was was really out there on the edge back in it's time early Wiccan practices were very extreme for their day. They had to be damned careful to keep their rites and rituals private.

 Add to that .... there was most likely a firm belief in the " Burning Times " and the persecution of witches. It creates an atmosphere of paranoia and an US vs THEM mentality.

 It makes sense to me that the founders of Wicca would have fine tuned their penalty to be particularly frightening to a Witch because at the time there was a lot at stake. It also makes sense that some kind of cell structure was put into place so that if one or two were discovered it wouldn't take the whole organization down.

 Here we are now fifty or sixty years into the future. The times have changed and society as a whole has changed. The anti witchcraft laws have been struck down. The myth of the burning times has been largely disproven. Just about everything about the secret rituals of Wicca can be laid bare for all to see and yet the mysteries will still remain incomprehensible to those who have not rightfully earned their understandings by their own merit.

 I think it begs the question ... are the penalties of one's oath merely symbolic now ?

The links between Masonry and Wicca are well known.  For then.  We have, IMO, reached an age where it is no longer currently germaine.  Historically, yes, currently, no.  The witchcraft laws had only recently been repealed when Gardner brought these Ardanes up to attention.

The cellular approach to masonry, to avoid the loss of the whole, (think Templars on Friday the 13th...), Wicca HAS NO whole.  I think that's a factor to keep IN the thought process.  The "education level" in that time wasn't "fairly poor", it was DISMAL.  While nobody believes the "millions" aspects of "The Burning Times", it is true that there were inquisitions and pogroms all over the place.  In the 1940's-50's, were the penalties intended to be symbolic?  There are countless people out there, online, who would answer "yes" to this simply by virtue of the times.  But WERE they "symbolic"?  No.  Are they today?  No.  Why SHOULD they be?

[blue]

C_A:

 The cellular approach to masonry, to avoid the loss of the whole, (think Templars on Friday the 13th...), Wicca HAS NO whole.

Blue:

 That's a toughie. I mean ... the early covens were lineaged ... true ?

 If that were the case then it should be possible for an inquisitor to trace an organized system back to the source.

C_A:

 In the 1940's-50's, were the penalties intended to be symbolic?  There are countless people out there, online, who would answer "yes" to this simply by virtue of the times.  But WERE they "symbolic"?  No.

Blue:

 I would agree. It may have been that the anti witchcraft laws were struck down but the Church of England was still incredibly powerful. Maybe they couldn't get jammed up on a practice of the craft but at that time there most have been dozens of "morality" laws that they could have been severely punished for.

 It was very much US vs Them. You can see it in the Ardennes. There was a very real and present threat.

C_A:

  No.  Are they today?  No.  Why SHOULD they be?

Blue:

 The thing is that those particular threats seem not to be present in today's society. Wicca has gone mainstream to a certain extent.

 In some ways it's like a chess board. Everything can be right there out in the open for all to see but if you don't earn your understandings the series of concepts will be so alien to your thought process that you'll never get it.

 So .... it appears that there really isn't the need for such secrecy and security in this day and age.

 That doesn't speak to what the future may hold. The outcome of any battle is never assured. There's always a possibility that militant extremist Muslim factions will sometime win the day and we all will be living under Sharia Law in another twenty or thirty years.

 Maybe it is best to adhere to the old ways. Be mindful that you cannot reveal what you do not know. 

[C_A]

That's a toughie. I mean ... the early covens were lineaged ... true ?

 If that were the case then it should be possible for an inquisitor to trace an organized system back to the source.

 So .... it appears that there really isn't the need for such secrecy and security in this day and age.

Yes, they were.  Still are.  Would it be "possible", yes, it would.  But that would require the failure of ONE of THREE possible links in each length of chain.  I would like to presume that they wouldn't get that many...PARTLY by virtue of the threats within the Ardanes, and partly by virue of the PROMISES.  Hang in there...

I believe that there IS a need for "such secrecy".  It's what keeps Wicca what it IS vs. what many would have it be.

[NyteShaed]

Yes, they were.  Still are.  Would it be "possible", yes, it would.  But that would require the failure of ONE of THREE possible links in each length of chain.  I would like to presume that they wouldn't get that many...PARTLY by virtue of the threats within the Ardanes, and partly by virue of the PROMISES.  Hang in there...

I believe that there IS a need for "such secrecy".  It's what keeps Wicca what it IS vs. what many would have it be.

if I read that right you, and many others on this board, by aknowledging the fact that you are initiated Wiccans, have damned yourself to the hell of the Christians.

[C_A]

Indeed.  And that is worth noting.....Ardanes are, indeed broken simply by discussing them here.

Does it matter?  Yes, I think it does. 

Maybe this thread should be locked and pruned....I guess the whole TCC BoS is a bad idea, as well....now that I think about it....TCC is a bad idea. 

Okay.  Time for some SERIOUS reflection....

[blue]

 I think we've opened up a can of worms here ...

 Quote the laws:

   
          28. And only if  it be safe may the Covens meet in some safe place for
          the Great Festivals.

          29. And while there, none  shall say whence they come, nor  give their
          true names.

          30. To this end, that if any be tortured, in their agony, they may not
          tell if they do not know.

          31. So be  it ardane, that no one shall tell anyone, not of the Craft,
          who be of the Wicca, or give any names,  or where any abide, or in any
          way tell anything which can betray any of us to our faces.

 That would put the kaibosh on the upcoming Beltane Festival.

[Hjolmaer]

Indeed.  By Blue's (and NyteShaed's) logic, there should be absolutely no information on Wicca anywhere on the internet, in metaphysical shops, in books, etc.

This board shouldn't exist, and neither should the Festival.

But then, the Ardanes also assume (largely) that witchcraft is still illegal, and that torturing people is still openly allowed (I'm not going to assume it doesn't happen).

So, even against that logic, we have to remember that this is the present, not the past.

Witchcraft is legal (at least in the US, where the festival is being held), Wicca is a recognized religion protected by the First Amendment, and none of us are going to be picked up and tortured to death just to find out where to find the others because firstly, it's illegal, and secondly, I don't think anyone who would actually have the wherewithal to do so actually cares.

Welcome to the real world.  Let's get back to discussing the Ardanes from a scholastic/"as applies to modern life" perspective, yes?

[blue]

 On that note:

         86. Ever make it a jest and in some  future time, perhaps, the persec-
          ution may die and we may worship our Gods in safety again.

          87. Let us all pray for that happy day.

 Perhaps that happy day has arrived ?

[Hjolmaer]

I'd like to think so.  At least in the states.

[blue]

 So this brings us back full circle and i think we have to reconsider whether or not the oaths and obligations are merely symbolic now.

 Another problem to consider ... Gardner is understood to have participated the crafting of the Ardanes yet he himself was quite often in the media limelight.

 ( I'm just trying to look at it from a variety of viewpoints. )

[NyteShaed]

Indeed.  By Blue's (and NyteShaed's) logic, there should be absolutely no information on Wicca anywhere on the internet, in metaphysical shops, in books, etc.

This board shouldn't exist, and neither should the Festival.

But then, the Ardanes also assume (largely) that witchcraft is still illegal, and that torturing people is still openly allowed (I'm not going to assume it doesn't happen).

So, even against that logic, we have to remember that this is the present, not the past.

Witchcraft is legal (at least in the US, where the festival is being held), Wicca is a recognized religion protected by the First Amendment, and none of us are going to be picked up and tortured to death just to find out where to find the others because firstly, it's illegal, and secondly, I don't think anyone who would actually have the wherewithal to do so actually cares.

Welcome to the real world.  Let's get back to discussing the Ardanes from a scholastic/"as applies to modern life" perspective, yes?

Perhaps more to the point, anyone disseminating information on Wicca can be assumed to be a heretic, because they are in contradiction of the Ardennes.

There's always information available, but this suggests that it's not likely to be reliable information, aside, perhaps, from cases where the person spreading it admits that what they are doing is forbidden.  And doesn't claim to b a Wiccan themself.

a bit like what Crowley did with the Golden Dawn's information.

[blue]

Perhaps more to the point, anyone disseminating information on Wicca can be assumed to be a heretic, because they are in contradiction of the Ardennes.

 Read the ardennes carefully. My opinion is that this is a matter between the individual practitioner and his or her God(s).

 If that's correct then it's nobody else's business ... and certainly not their place to judge ... true ?