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[C_A]

Where was I?  Oh, right...off doing research...

Compiling an exegesis on information that is already online does not dis-serve Wicca.

So...where were we? Buhler?

[Hjolmaer]

Who the hell's Buhler?

Anyway, we seem to have (quite pleasantly, I might say) steam-rolled from 25 to 35, so we would likely pick up on 36:

Let each High Priestess govern her Coven with justice and love, with the help and advice of the High Priest and the Elders, always heeding the advice of the Messenger of the Gods if he cometh.

And we'll see how far we steam-roll this time.

This tells us that the HPS leads the coven, with only the help and advice of the other "coven leaders".

Is this a matter of emphasis somewhere?  Perhaps an attempt to "counter" the patriarchal churches of the time?  Put a woman in charge to balance the world's energies against nothing but men being in charge everywhere else?

For a path that speaks so desperately of balance, does this not seem to unbalance things toward the feminine?

The HPS is, in this line, compelled to "heed the messenger of the Gods".  "Heed", mind you meaning "to give consideration or attention to".  Not "damn well listen and apply stupid mortal".  "pay attention to".

Like I "pay attention to" my dog?  I would imagine the MotG would warrant a helluva lot more than what seems to amount to an over-glorified footnote.

"Oh, and while you're at it, if the gods themselves grace you with an avatar, don't sweat it, just acknowledge it's there, what it says if it speaks, and go on about your business."

I'm in a snarky mood tonight.  FYI.

[edens garden]

Ferris Buhler? Hjolmaer, I'm ashamed of you.

[Edward Collett]

Is there, perhaps, another link to use? -just found this topic-
The one posted in the beginning redirects you to somewhere else.

Edit: Nevermind, I was able to find them.  I find them somewhat lacking because it appears to be written during the time of persecution, and a lot of that doesn't really apply to today's society.  

I don't know if the version you had posted was different from the one I read, but it stated that you should write names with ink and then wash it?  If it were truly during the times that it implies then not many would have ink because most were poor, unless by ink they mean charcoal or chalk (which could be since washing ink is very difficult).

[Hjolmaer]

Is there, perhaps, another link to use? -just found this topic-
The one posted in the beginning redirects you to somewhere else.

Edit: Nevermind, I was able to find them.  I find them somewhat lacking because it appears to be written during the time of persecution, and a lot of that doesn't really apply to today's society.  

I don't know if the version you had posted was different from the one I read, but it stated that you should write names with ink and then wash it?  If it were truly during the times that it implies then not many would have ink because most were poor, unless by ink they mean charcoal or chalk (which could be since washing ink is very difficult).

There are methods of making a very cheap ink that works well enough.  But the point of this discussion is to discuss the Ardanes.  They were written/adapted/etc by Gardner, so their veracity is somewhat questionable, but they are accepted as Wiccan laws.

[Curt]

Couple of things. For starters, I read through the entire thread. I am in kind of amazement...when it started I was becoming angry with some of the things said. As I progressed through the thread...I became more and more aware of what was really being said and my increased level of understanding. Thank you all! Regarding secrecy.....I think that is still important. Look around you....there is more and more of what I would call TV Christianity. Be that "Born Agains" or some progam as Pat Robinson has or had. Not to mention some branches of Christianity....well from what I see are quite zealous in thier beliefs. If things go "South" re the economy or some natural catastrophy...watch them come out in droves against anything that they feel threatens their little world.

[naturalpaganmomma]

OK my first big stumbling block.  If Wiccans believe in a different system than Christianity, how can Wiccans curse people to the Christian Hell?  Since from what I've read so far Wiccans don't believe in Hell to begin with. 

Bear with me, I'm learning...

We don't?

Wiccans don't believe in a "HELL=AFTERLIFE" per se...as a place? as a Divine retribution by our G-ds?  As an opposite to the Summerland?  Can a Deity create such a place for their own followers?


Giving up the Bretheren or the Mysteries would render you no longer one of "us", but one of "them".  If you're one of "them", you can go where "they" believe.

I found this particular aspect of this thread so thought provoking that I have been studying all day. I wondered what would have made Gardener put it in as a rule. That led me to learning about "The Burning Times." I'm not Wiccan. I'm still trying to figure out who I am still, but I do have a base knowledge of who Gardener is even though I have not read his work.

Now this is not meant to be argumentative. It is solely meant to add to the conversation and hopefully inspire independent thinking and research in my fellow newbies.

In addition to the rendering oneself no longer wiccan by a form of collusion with outsiders, I think it could it also be seen from additional perspectives, which I shall explain.

History teaches us that hundreds of thousands of people were put to death during "The Burning Times" even though not all were witches. Would it not make sense for Gardener to take said information into account and place the rule based on common sense. For instance, something along the lines of, Look what they did to alleged witches in the past. Do you think they would not do that to us as well? This is why secrecy is necessary.

Also, I read somewhere that taking another individual's free will into account and respecting it is also important to Wiccans. By divulging information of other Wiccans to outsiders, is that not also taking away those Wiccans' free will? Taking away their choice to be known and potentially harassed for it?

These are just another two reasons I believe could have been the cause for Gardener putting the secrecy law into place.

I believe his reference to a Christian Hell could also stem from the fact that many were burned at the stake in history. What do they always say about so called "evil doers"? They will "burn in Hell". Maybe Gardener meant burning at the stake to be a literal, physical manifestion of a Christian Hell on earth, so to speak.

Now I will address my thoughts on the validity of that law in today's day and age. Is it valid or is it outmoded?

I would have to say I still believe it valid. Sadly, with no paranoia involved, only clear minded reasoning, I can not honestly say that any pagan is 100% safe from being burned at the stake. It was still within the Twentieth Century that the KKK burned crucifixes on the lawns of African Americans and murdered Emmett Till in 1955. It was also during the Twentieth Century that Brandon Teena (Teena Renea Brandon), a transgendered young adult was brutally murdered in 1993 for being transgendered. Although his death led to hate crime laws, they are still not 100% percent effective. A law, no matter how well intended, does not protect one from a crazed zealot. Plus, as recently as 2001, most likely even more recent than that, Protestants and Catholics were still killing each other in Ireland. A modern day example of potential death resulting from differing beliefs.

As I said, this was not meant to be argumentative in any way. I only wished to share my thoughts and see what others thought. After all, is it not the "old way" to exchange thoughts, ideas, and information? I also hope this made sense, as it is almost two in the morning where I am and I'm tired. LOL!

Blessings.

[Earthbound Spirit]

I would do some more reasearch on "the burning times".

[dark magus]

I think the idea was that if the laws were broken, then that person has prove themselves not to be wicca rather to have always been Christian, hence the reference to the Christian hell, being a place or concept that Christians or people who have come from a Christian back ground would relate to.
 
Bear in mind, all this was written in the UK during the late 40's and early 50's. The predominant faith was Christianity. And regardless if you did or did not go to church, everyone had awareness of what the Christian heaven and hell was.
 
Wicca, as a religion, did not get legalised in the UK until 1952 (as I remember, could be later). However covens were up and running for a number of years prior to that. Secrecy was needed or you'd get tossed in jail!

[Earthbound Spirit]

I am pretty sure it was 1954 when Gardner came up with it....

[naturalpaganmomma]

Thank you both. I will definitely continue to do more research. Is there a particular area of "the Burning Times" I should look into more deeply?

[Earthbound Spirit]

I would look for more historical info than a lot of info some Pagan authors tend to write about.  It really wasnt near as bad as a lot of Pagan authors make it out to be.  The 10s of thousands is not accurate.  In other words, the burning times did not occure as portrayed by a lot of authors.

[Scorched Eartha]

Those accused of witch craft  in Britain were rarely burned at the stake. They may have been hanged or tortured. A few were even drowned. Generally speaking the centralised Church hierarchy was not the main prime mover behind these events. They were local events and reflected internal tensions within communities, often between the Catholic and Protestant forces who were in those times clashing and jockeying for power.

 The facts are that almost all of the information that is generally accepted as truth by the Neopagan community about the "burning times" is wrong:

   The total number of victims was probably between 50,000 and 100,000 -- not 9 million as many believe.

Although alleged witches were burned alive or hung over a five century interval -- from the 14th to the 18th century -- the vast majority were tried from 1550 to 1650.

   Some of the victims worshiped Pagan deities, and thus could be considered to be indirectly linked to today's Neopagans. However most apparently did not.

   Some of the victims were midwives and native healers; however most were not.

   Most of the victims were tried and executed by local, community courts, not by the Church.

   A substantial minority of victims -- about 25% -- were male.

   Many countries in Europe largely escaped the burning times: Ireland executed only four "Witches;" Russia only ten. The craze affected mostly Switzerland, Germany and France.

   Eastern Orthodox countries had few Witch trials. Stephen Hayes writes:

"In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown...."The Orthodox Church is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary...."

   Most of the deaths seem to have taken place in Western Europe in the times and areas where Protestant - Roman Catholic conflict -- and thus social turmoil -- was at its maximum.



Hugh V. McLachlan, "The Kirk, Satan and Salem: A History of the Witches of Renfrewshire," Grimsay Press, (2006) This book describes the witchcraft allegations and prosecutions in Renfrewshire, Scotland, in the 1690s. It covers points of similarities between this case and the more famous Salem case.

 "Christian responses to Witchcraft and sorcery," at: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/

http://www.twpt.com/burning.htm


http://www.mythinglinks.org/euro~west~wicca~burning.html

[naturalpaganmomma]

I thought nine million had to be too high as well. Knowing that the world population was not as high during those centuries, in addition to the black plague randomly rearing it's ugly head, wiping out large populations of people, nine million I believe is an impossible number. TBH, and I can not prove this theory, I think they estimated that high because millions were killed during the holocaust of WWII. I don't think they factored in the world population was larger during WWII than it was centuries ago.

It is strange that in the past I have seen people portray the Inquisition(s) and church dominance heavily in Great Britain, which doesn't seem to be the actual case. It seems...and I know you will all tell me if I am wrong  ...but it seems that England (Great Britain) was harder hit during Bloody Queen Mary's reign than at any other time.

And I have pulled us off the original topic. Sorry about that.

Getting back onto topic...I am going to read all the Ardanes and see how they sit with me.

[marisol]

Very nice C_A thank-you.