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Author Topic: The Ardanes  (Read 8332 times)

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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2009, 05:19:24 PM »

Just to clarify - Cary hasn't been studying long enough to be a fan of anyone yet ;)  I pulled that from a site comparing about 5 versions of the Charge by different people (including Valiente's version).  Also I can't wait til I have an edit button so when I mess up coding I can fix it.  *sigh*
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2009, 05:33:56 PM »

Just to clarify - Cary hasn't been studying long enough to be a fan of anyone yet ;)  I pulled that from a site comparing about 5 versions of the Charge by different people (including Valiente's version). 

The best way to learn...

Quote
Also I can't wait til I have an edit button so when I mess up coding I can fix it.  *sigh*

Everyone (with an ounce of intelligence) here knew what you meant.

Worry not.  With your contribution to this board, you'll be able to edit your posts in no time.  If it were my board, you'd have full access already.  *hint hint*
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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2009, 05:56:22 PM »

Worry not.  With your contribution to this board, you'll be able to edit your posts in no time.  If it were my board, you'd have full access already.  *hint hint*

Thanks, FW :)  I'm just picky and hate having my code hangin' out ;)  EBS says it takes about a month so I should be good in a couple days anyway.  Not that I've been posting that long, I was mostly lurking until I got the 'introduce yourself' email lol. 

Getting back to the Ardanes, Rules 6 and 7 talk about properly purifying both the circle and the self.  I've read different things about purification, one source suggests, for example, a ritual bath prior to casting the circle to wash away any negative energies from the day, to prepare both physically and to take the time to mentally prepare for the rite as well.  Some sources suggest that if you can, a bath (swim) in a natural source like a lake or a river is even better.  Considering how freeing and calming I find swimming that makes sense to me.  I mostly would like ideas on how to best purify a physical space for working.  I realize clean it physically, of course, you can't concentrate in a bunch of clutter, but then there are suggestions ranging from using a ritual broom to sweep away the energies attached to the area, to using incense known for its cleansing properties and purifying the area before working.  Considering I've always felt that energy can 'attach' itself to a place (think of the feeling when you step into a very old church, or if you step into an old prison - both have completely different energies) this also makes sense to me; but what are some of the 'preferred' methods of purifying self and space?  Are there specific incense types that are better?  Is the act of picturing physically sweeping away bad energy more helpful than cleansing with incense? 

I should probably add that I have not yet attempted a ritual.  I have meditated and done a lot of reading and thinking but I don't feel that I have a deep enough understanding to perform a ritual, yet.  The more I learn the more believe that the right time will present itself.  When I first started reading up on Wicca I thought "gee I should do one of these ritual things"... and then something inside me said "wait".  And now the more I've learned the more I realize I was so not ready for a ritual.  I think when I am ready, I will know because it will feel 'right'.
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2009, 06:05:29 PM »

Getting back to the Ardanes, Rules 6 and 7 talk about properly purifying both the circle and the self.  I've read different things about purification, one source suggests, for example, a ritual bath prior to casting the circle to wash away any negative energies from the day, to prepare both physically and to take the time to mentally prepare for the rite as well.  Some sources suggest that if you can, a bath (swim) in a natural source like a lake or a river is even better.  Considering how freeing and calming I find swimming that makes sense to me.  I mostly would like ideas on how to best purify a physical space for working.  I realize clean it physically, of course, you can't concentrate in a bunch of clutter, but then there are suggestions ranging from using a ritual broom to sweep away the energies attached to the area, to using incense known for its cleansing properties and purifying the area before working.  Considering I've always felt that energy can 'attach' itself to a place (think of the feeling when you step into a very old church, or if you step into an old prison - both have completely different energies) this also makes sense to me; but what are some of the 'preferred' methods of purifying self and space?  Are there specific incense types that are better?  Is the act of picturing physically sweeping away bad energy more helpful than cleansing with incense?

The most cleansed I've ever felt personally in a ritual was in my self-dedication years ago, when I bathed in a creek in WV.  I've used other means of cleansing effectively, including a bath in water and sea salt, and a rosemary/lavender bath.

Sacred space in a remote natural area outdoors, IMO, requires no cleansing.  If I am to hold a ritual indoors, even in a room in my house that serves primarily as my temple, I cleanse the space with my besom, following smudging the space with white sage.  I've found this method to be quite effective.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2009, 04:34:50 AM »

Cary Wrote:

Getting back to the Ardanes, Rules 6 and 7 talk about properly purifying both the circle and the self.  I've read different things about purification, one source suggests, for example, a ritual bath prior to casting the circle to wash away any negative energies from the day, to prepare both physically and to take the time to mentally prepare for the rite as well.

Blue:

 To better understand 6 & 7 it might help to put them into historical context. See ... at that time there was no solitary practice. There were only chartered covens which could trace their lineage directly back to the original coven.

 It's possible that the ritual was prescribed and closely adhered to. It's sort of like a play with different participants having different roles to play from beginning to end.

 If you think of eight or so people gathered skyclad within the circle there might have been some practical reasons for preparing the mind, the body, and the space.

 If you are preparing the space for a group working you really have to consider safety. BMO wrote a wonderful post on the subject awhile back.  Also ... people were participating Au Natural. You have to think about their comfort.

 People do have certain natural body odors. Back in the 50's & 60's people might bathe every other day or once a week even. It was probably a good idea that everyone should bathe before attending ritual.  ;)

  It's just my opinion but i think if you consider the times, and it being a group setting, the Ardennes take on a different meaning.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2009, 05:53:17 AM »


 This thread got me to thinking about a few things so i did a little digging.

 At this point i don't think you can practice Wicca as a solitary. At least ... practice as Wicca was intended to be practiced. Removing the group dynamic changes things significantly. The solitary apple may have fallen too far from the tree for it to be called Wicca anymore.

 There's a reason i'm of this opinion. While i'm not Wiccan, i am a 3rd degree Master Mason. If you dig back into the history of Wicca ... and most especially consider Crowley ... there's no mistaking the influence of Freemasonry. That's common knowledge.

 What isn't common knowledge are certain trademarks of a Masonic influence. I am oathbound but i don't think it's a violation of my oaths to say that i see a Masonic influence in Wicca, The Mormon church, and the structure and forms of our federal government.

 I know without a doubt that it would be quite impossible to be a solitary Freemason and initiate oneself.

If ... and that's a big if ... you remove the group dynamic, a training and degree system, a system of chartering the covens, and a system of prescribed ritual, can it still be Wicca ?

 

 
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2009, 06:13:16 AM »

This thread got me to thinking about a few things so i did a little digging.

 At this point i don't think you can practice Wicca as a solitary. At least ... practice as Wicca was intended to be practiced. Removing the group dynamic changes things significantly. The solitary apple may have fallen too far from the tree for it to be called Wicca anymore.

So your contention is that I cannot be Wiccan.  That is fine and you are well within your rights to state such an opinion based on your knowledge of Freemasonry.

But just for argument's sake, let's dig a little deeper...

Quote
There's a reason i'm of this opinion. While i'm not Wiccan, i am a 3rd degree Master Mason. If you dig back into the history of Wicca ... and most especially consider Crowley ... there's no mistaking the influence of Freemasonry. That's common knowledge.

 What isn't common knowledge are certain trademarks of a Masonic influence. I am oathbound but i don't think it's a violation of my oaths to say that i see a Masonic influence in Wicca, The Mormon church, and the structure and forms of our federal government.

 I know without a doubt that it would be quite impossible to be a solitary Freemason and initiate oneself.

Which has been my contention and I have stated this quite openly here time and again.  I have said many times that self-initiation is an oxymoron.  It simply cannot be done.

But since Wiccan belief is centered around Goddess and God, are you, with your knowledge not only of Freemasonry (let's face it, all the oathbound stuff is somewhere on the web for everyone to read), but of Wicca, stating that a solitary practitioner cannot be initiated by Them?

I have also said that one likely cannot follow traditional Wicca as put forth by Gardner, i.e. Gardnerian Wicca as a solitaire, but if one maintains the balance of the dogma, beliefs and ritual practice, as closely as possible, one is a practitioner of solitary Wicca, which admittedly is not the same as traditional Wicca, but is still Wicca nonetheless.

Quote
If ... and that's a big if ... you remove the group dynamic, a training and degree system, a system of chartering the covens, and a system of prescribed ritual, can it still be Wicca ?

IMO, Absolutely!  A solitary Wiccan can maintain a group dynamic by celebrating with the Gods.  They can be trained by Them and still follow prescribed ritual, though slightly modified to accommodate a singular physical presence within the circle.  I think you are leaving the Gods out of your 'group' mindset, no?
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2009, 06:22:53 AM »

To all the participants of this thread,

I have been following this thread with great interest even though I haven't posted in it.  I will not allow it be derailed(weird coming from me) with SRW.  I will split the SRW stuff off into it's own thread if it continues.


EBS
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2009, 06:31:25 AM »

To all the participants of this thread,

I have been following this thread with great interest even though I haven't posted in it.  I will not allow it be derailed(weird coming from me) with SRW.  I will split the SRW stuff off into it's own thread if it continues.


EBS

I must interject here that it is pertinent to the discussion.

Why do you think it should be split?  Don't you think those that may happen upon this thread in the future should have the whole story?  Do you really think censoring threads for the purpose of propagating one's own agenda is a good idea?

I detest SRW's work as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I think others' opinions of her should be erased.  Why not just post your rebuttal?

Finally, I see no proponents of SRW having posted ITT thus far.  I see someone who wants to learn asking for opinions of more seasoned practitioners. *shrugs*
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 06:33:54 AM by FireWillow »
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2009, 06:38:21 AM »

I must interject here that it is pertinent to the discussion.

Why do you think it should be split?  Don't you think those that may happen upon this thread in the future should have the whole story?  Do you really think censoring threads for the purpose of propagating one's own agenda is a good idea?

No it's not.  You are right. 

This is has been a very good thread and it makes me sick seeing her name in it. 
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2009, 07:31:29 AM »

Firewillow wrote:

So your contention is that I cannot be Wiccan.  That is fine and you are well within your rights to state such an opinion based on your knowledge of Freemasonry.

Blue:

I believe we have had this discussion before and you explained that Wicca runs through your heart, mind, body, and soul.  Who am i to judge ?  I'm really not qualified.

I do think you are missing something of vital importance and that is the experience of having come up through the degrees within the coven. I would be willing to bet that your perspective on things would be different.

Having experienced both the solitary and group practice you would be the one best qualified to render a judgement.

Firewillow wrote:

IMO, Absolutely!  A solitary Wiccan can maintain a group dynamic by celebrating with the Gods.  They can be trained by Them and still follow prescribed ritual, though slightly modified to accommodate a singular physical presence within the circle.  I think you are leaving the Gods out of your 'group' mindset, no?

Blue:

IMO no. They are two different things. If things are right there is a bond of love, trust, and a spiritual conection that develops with other humans within the coven setting.

I think you really really have to spend some time in a group setting and experience things  for yourself in order to understand the differences.



 
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2009, 08:15:38 AM »

I believe we have had this discussion before and you explained that Wicca runs through your heart, mind, body, and soul.  Who am i to judge ?  I'm really not qualified.

I do think you are missing something of vital importance and that is the experience of having come up through the degrees within the coven. I would be willing to bet that your perspective on things would be different.

Having experienced both the solitary and group practice you would be the one best qualified to render a judgement.

I am in full agreement with you as far as having missed something having not come up through a coven.  Unfortunately, like many others, I didn't have the opportunity.  Therefore, I set out to teach myself with the help of Goddess and God (and in many instances, They taught me ThemSelves), and with the help of those who shared their experiences in literature.  While I missed something on one hand, I wouldn't trade my experiences for what I did gain on the other.

Quote
IMO no. They are two different things. If things are right there is a bond of love, trust, and a spiritual conection that develops with other humans within the coven setting.

I think you really really have to spend some time in a group setting and experience things  for yourself in order to understand the differences.

While I have not been a part of a coven, I have been to group rituals.  While the bond is indeed fulfilling, there is much to be said for the experience of being alone and at one with Goddess and God as well.  When I celebrate a sabbat with a group, I also celebrate that same sabbat alone in my circle with my Gods.  I wouldn't feel quite fulfilled if I did not.  I need that intimate connection.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2009, 09:46:06 AM »

   I hear ya F.W.

   Look up solitary in the dictionary and there is a picture of me.  ;)

   Please bear in mind that i'm only trying to share my experience.

 To my mind the Crowley's influence on Wicca is noteworthy. It's very rare, perhaps unique, that someone should be of the 33rd deg., a member of the lodge of England and later affiliate with the Grand Orient. (Not to mention the OTO and the Order of the Golden Dawn.)

 I may not know what i'm talking about but i think my experience of being duely initiated and brought up through the degrees in the AF & AM may have some common ground with coming up through in the tradition of the old guard.

 Two very different things mind you ... but ... maybe some similarities because of their shared ancestry ?

 To the point though :  It was difficult for me to work as part of a group and be a part of a group. I came to it very reluctantly but i knew it was something i had to do as the next step.  I can honestly say i'm a better man for it. I learned some things that i never could have learned otherwise.

 Let's take something that is common knowledge for instance. The master of the lodge is properly addressed as " Worshipful " or " Worshipful Master ".   Now ... a lot of people read something simple like that and go WHOA !. But ... if you had the experience of coming up through then you would understand why that's not a problem.

 From time to time I hear about all of the infighting and power plays that take place in " Wiccan ? " covens that don't have a lineage and it makes me wonder if something has been lost along the way.

 Anyway ... coming full circle back to the Ardennes ! They're kind of a hint that things were very different back then weren't they ?   It's just common sense ... there's no doubt that the Gardenarian Tradition was Wicca.

 As you get further and further away from the source a thing can evolve and morph into something uniquely it's own. That begs the question .... Exactly where is the tipping point ?  That's a sore subject for a lot of folks.

 For me ... it's just an academic discussion. I don't have anything invested in it and as far as i know it doesn't affect me.

 It's not my concern what others do. I just like to talk about this stuff and maybe learn something new along the way.  :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 09:59:45 AM by blue »
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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2009, 09:48:33 AM »


 To better understand 6 & 7 it might help to put them into historical context. See ... at that time there was no solitary practice. There were only chartered covens which could trace their lineage directly back to the original coven.

 It's possible that the ritual was prescribed and closely adhered to. It's sort of like a play with different participants having different roles to play from beginning to end.

 If you think of eight or so people gathered skyclad within the circle there might have been some practical reasons for preparing the mind, the body, and the space.

 If you are preparing the space for a group working you really have to consider safety. BMO wrote a wonderful post on the subject awhile back.  Also ... people were participating Au Natural. You have to think about their comfort.

 People do have certain natural body odors. Back in the 50's & 60's people might bathe every other day or once a week even. It was probably a good idea that everyone should bathe before attending ritual.  ;)

  It's just my opinion but i think if you consider the times, and it being a group setting, the Ardennes take on a different meaning.

Food for thought, Blue.  As always.  :)  Although I still believe it would be important to go through these steps alone also; it is part of preparing oneself for the ritual.  Even if you don't think of the energies involved, I know I always feel better after a bath or a shower,or a swim, more relaxed and just... better.  I think this would be an important way to feel prior to doing a ritual to commune with God and Goddess.  

As for the group dynamic versus the solitary experience, I've had neither, but can draw on other group experiences back when I was still learning about Christianity (a while back before my practising Atheist phase).  Take for example something common to most church services - the time when people are singing hymns.  Hearing everyone sing like that in praise of God can be a powerfully moving experience.  However I often found it just as moving and fulfilling to pray by myself.  I think if you have a good coven, Wicca in a group would be much the same way - both types of practice would offer different experiences.  Now if you don't have access to the coven/group experience,

Quote from: FireWillow
I have also said that one likely cannot follow traditional Wicca as put forth by Gardner, i.e. Gardnerian Wicca as a solitaire, but if one maintains the balance of the dogma, beliefs and ritual practice, as closely as possible, one is a practitioner of solitary Wicca, which admittedly is not the same as traditional Wicca, but is still Wicca nonetheless.

I think FW pretty much summed it up.  

For EBS - I promise not to bring up She Who Shall Not Be Named again.  The aversion to her that folks have is telling, and I shall consign her to the fluffpile.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2009, 11:44:54 AM »

Carysta wrote:

Food for thought, Blue.  As always.    Although I still believe it would be important to go through these steps alone also; it is part of preparing oneself for the ritual.  Even if you don't think of the energies involved, I know I always feel better after a bath or a shower,or a swim, more relaxed and just... better.  I think this would be an important way to feel prior to doing a ritual to commune with God and Goddess. 

Blue:

Ohh ... i agree completely. Aside from the practical considerations it's important to purify oneself and be in the right frame of mind before attending a ritual.

F.W. wrote:

I have also said that one likely cannot follow traditional Wicca as put forth by Gardner, i.e. Gardnerian Wicca as a solitaire, but if one maintains the balance of the dogma, beliefs and ritual practice, as closely as possible, one is a practitioner of solitary Wicca, which admittedly is not the same as traditional Wicca, but is still Wicca nonetheless.

Carysta responded:

I think FW pretty much summed it up. 

Blue:

Not to belabor the point but i'm not so sure about that.

I've been trying to get something across that might make all of the difference in the world but if it's outside of someones range of experience they don't have a point of reference and will not be able to identify with what you're saying.

About all that anyone can do in that situation is point and say go experience this for yourself so that you can understand.

Ahh well ... I'm gonna stop bugging everyone. ROFL there's about 8 cord of firewood in the rounds out back that needs to be processed, stacked, and dried over the summer. If i don't get to it now  there will be a terrible price to pay next winter. Such is life when you live by the seasons.  :)

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