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Author Topic: The Ardanes  (Read 7748 times)

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C_A

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The Ardanes
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:57:44 PM »

Since we seem to have embarked on a real, live, discussion of the REDE, why not one on the Ardanes?

Look here,

http://wicca.timerift.net/laws/161.shtml

And discuss.

This is meant to be a Wiccan-critical discussion.  If you are not Wiccan, fine, say so, and please be SURE you aren't adding a "me too" to the thread!

MEAT, people.  Not veggies or taters!
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 08:02:47 PM »

I'll be glad to put forth my opinions here.

I know there are those here that are 'oathbound,' but offering these opinion might appear counterproductive unless those whose opinions I've grown to respect offer their opinions as well.

Great link, btw...;)
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C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 08:03:55 PM »

Insofar as that respect be mutual.

And I shall; as I assume others will, to the extent the oaths will allow.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 08:16:57 PM »

Quote from: stuff blatantly ripped from the above link
1.The Law was made and ordained of old.
2.The Law was made for the Wicca, to advise and help in their troubles.
3.The Wicca should give due worship to the gods and obey their will, which they ordain, for it was made for the good of Wicca as the worship of the Wicca is good for the gods. For the gods love the brethren of Wicca.

1.  Okay...we can't hit this one too hard.
2.  No worries there.  Simple Enough.
3.  Symantic issues aside, I submit that the "Wicca" in question encompasses many "traditions" or "factions" of witchery.  As much as a stodgy-old-goat as I am, I cannot claim SINGULAR title to this by any of my lineages....it's for all of the wiccae.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

Whisper

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 08:26:36 PM »

For the record I am a dedicant. I didn't finish reading the Ardanes but it seems to be a little...off. From what little I know, it doesn't seem to really fit into wicca. I'm not sure but I wanted to know so please teach me about this.
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C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 08:44:09 PM »

For the record I am a dedicant. I didn't finish reading the Ardanes but it seems to be a little...off. From what little I know, it doesn't seem to really fit into wicca. I'm not sure but I wanted to know so please teach me about this.

A dedicant to what/whom?

DO read them!

Off?  Some of it, seen through the lens of "today" may seem so.  But it DOES fit.  NOT with wildly-interpreted-shoe-horning, but with simple, rational thought.

Take your time...we'll be here, trust me.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 08:46:21 PM »

A dedicant to what/whom?

DO read them!

Off?  Some of it, seen through the lens of "today" may seem so.  But it DOES fit.  NOT with wildly-interpreted-shoe-horning, but with simple, rational thought.

Take your time...we'll be here, trust me.

The above, by the way, was not directed SOLELY to Whisper, though it was a reply to his post.

ALL of you who "declare" yourselves Wiccan should be reading, if not responding to, this thread.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

Whisper

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 08:49:31 PM »

I have dedicated myself to the Horned God and the Goddess of the Moon. That's a very general description but I think it's about time for me to say goodnight and may the Goddess watch over you. Blessed be.
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 08:53:13 PM »

...but I think it's about time for me to say goodnight and may the Goddess watch over you. Blessed be.

*smiles* For how long?

...and worry not.  She does.
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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 09:52:44 PM »

Quote from: from the list
35.  And if any break these Laws, even under torture, THE CURSE OF THE GODDESS SHALL BE UPON THEM, so they may never be reborn on earth and may remain where they belong, in the hell of the Christians.

OK my first big stumbling block.  If Wiccans believe in a different system than Christianity, how can Wiccans curse people to the Christian Hell?  Since from what I've read so far Wiccans don't believe in Hell to begin with. 

Bear with me, I'm learning...
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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 10:10:50 PM »

Wait, I just read the notes on the Old Laws, so that puts everything into perspective a little more.  The Old Laws are certainly an interesting read.  I think it's interesting that this document exists, and while it certainly gives an interesting historical perspective, a couple of things made me wonder (besides the above post).  For example:

Quote
For the Gods love the Wica, as a man loveth a woman by mastering her.

...if the man is the 'master' how did they reconcile that with the High Priestess being the nominal head of the Coven?  I realize that this document is intended to be from the older times and perhaps based on historically handed down information; it still made me go 'huh'.

Quote
Training


153. It has been found that practicing the art doth cause a fondness between aspirant and tutor, and it is the cause of better results if this be so.
154. And if for any reason this be undesireable, it can easily be avoided by both persons from the outset firmly resolving in their minds to be as brother and sister or parent and child.
155. And it is for this reason that a man may be taught only by a woman and a woman by a man, and women and women should not attempt these practices together. So be it ordained

...reference to homosexuality?  What is the (modern) Wiccan perspective on relationshipos between people of the same gender?
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 11:17:48 PM »

how can Wiccans curse people to the Christian Hell?  Since from what I've read so far Wiccans don't believe in Hell to begin with.

Wiccans curse people to the Christian hell?

Sorry C_A
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 11:20:38 PM by EarthBound SpIRiT »
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 05:15:46 AM »

  Ok ... well ... I'm not Wiccan nor am I bound by wiccan oaths.

  That said .... THINK PEOPLE!  Use your noggin !  Reason it through !
  
  C_A quite rightly described Wicca as a seeking path at one time.  Start seeking the truth of things.

  If something seems a " bit off " or doesn't quite fit do a bit of detective work. Perhaps some of the mysteries of wicca have not yet revealed themselves to you yet.

  * hint *  It's worth considering that the Ardennes probably pre date the rede. If anything could rightly be called wicca it would be the Ardennes. It's probably the closest thing to wiccan religious doctrine to be found and is a cornerstone of the faith.

  Not for nothing ... but ... if you don't understand the laws of old and the ideas contained within them can you really, honestly, say that you're Wiccan ?  These are the tenets of the faith.

  It's one thing to understand your history and perhaps disagree on a point or two. That puts you into the category of one of the trads that branched off from the original Gardenarian way much the same way as the protestant faiths branched off from original Christianity. There's still enough of " The Essense " of the faith left to call it Wicca or Christianity. There comes a point though that things become so watered down that it becomes something different. Something not at all wicca ....

  IMO that's the case with a lot of modern day wiccans. They only have a superficial understanding of the faith. If something comes along to suggest that Wicca isn't quite what they think it is ? ... well ... they are quite apt to dismiss it and go on their merry way.

  This isn't isolated to Wicca. I've met plenty of lifelong Christians that don't understand the first thing about the spiritual path they claim to follow. Probably the same can be said of any religion ....

  Ohh well ....   :(


ETA: This isn't directed at anyone in particular. Don't take any of it personally. It's just a general gripe. All of these things were included in the Ardennes for a reason. I can't stress this strongly enough ... if something doesn't fit go dig it out. Find out why it was included. It will improve your understanding of the faith.

  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 05:26:57 AM by blue »
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C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 06:50:25 AM »

OK my first big stumbling block.  If Wiccans believe in a different system than Christianity, how can Wiccans curse people to the Christian Hell?  Since from what I've read so far Wiccans don't believe in Hell to begin with. 

Bear with me, I'm learning...

We don't?

Wiccans don't believe in a "HELL=AFTERLIFE" per se...as a place? as a Divine retribution by our G-ds?  As an opposite to the Summerland?  Can a Deity create such a place for their own followers?


Giving up the Bretheren or the Mysteries would render you no longer one of "us", but one of "them".  If you're one of "them", you can go where "they" believe.

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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

C_A

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 06:53:22 AM »

  For example:

...if the man is the 'master' how did they reconcile that with the High Priestess being the nominal head of the Coven?  I realize that this document is intended to be from the older times and perhaps based on historically handed down information; it still made me go 'huh'.

...reference to homosexuality?  What is the (modern) Wiccan perspective on relationshipos between people of the same gender?

I am going to give you clues here.  Work on it, m'kay?

A)  Think of it in the context of ONE POSITION...

B)  No.  But think of BALANCE.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.
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