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[Anu]

I recall having this conversation a long time ago, and was interested in what folk here now might think.

Reincarnation is not something I've ever believed in.

Let me explain. My beliefs aren't nearly as complicated as that. I believe that we are all part of the Universal Energy, just a particular manifestation of it, and when our body dies, our spirit becomes one with the Universe again. If necessary our essense can reform for family members or to get a message across, but for the most part - back in to the whole.

When a new baby is born, Universal Energy will create it's body and spirit - and somewhere in there might be an echo of a memory of mine, a penchant for pistachios - the inate knowledge of how to drive a pallet truck having never even seen one before that I had in my lifetime, the memory of the East Cliffs at sunset in dreams when they haven't a clue where it is and have never been there. But it won't have all of my experience and life behind it - there may be many echos from many others who have rejoined with the All, and it might experience some of those - or none.

I can't believe that I'm in some kind of spiritual Groundhog Day, and I don't.

To be more concise, I don't believe that my spirit in it's entirety is going to be placed into another body when this one dies, to re-live life again and again and again. I don't believe in reincarnation in that sense at all.

For those who do, I'm interested in how one would ever learn all of the lessons they are 'supposed' to, in order to be permitted to go to 'Heaven' or 'Summerlands'? Even if for example, someone claims to have some recollection of a 'past life' through regression - surely they wouldn't be able to remember all of the 'mistakes' they made in all of their previous lives in order to have a successful and acceptable do-over?

I mean no disrespect, but that seems like more of a punishment than anything else - a living hell perhaps for someone who believes in reincarnation - because the very fact of their existance means that they haven't got it right. And if they feel they have lived many lives - then they aren't 'getting it' at all - seems more like torment. How can the life lessons that one is supposed to learn, be lessons without any information about the mistakes made previously, to work with?

Surely if you can't remember your previous lessons and goals from other incarnations - then they are new to you anyway!

I suppose what I'm not getting ... well, is the point of it really. Let's look at one life-time for example. Say Jane has a friend that needs her help - but she is busy at work and flicks them off. She then discovers that it was serious and they're in hospital in a coma at the hands of another person. She learns from this experience, and pays attention to her friends in future - to ensure she won't make the mistake again.

Jane has also just come out of her second abusive relationship. This time she's managed to identify why she is enabling this kind of behaviour and makes the conscious decision to change, because of her past experiences.

She's been in Customer Services, and the pent up aggression that she has not been able to vent at home, she's been venting at work - and has been very unpopular with Customers and co-workers alike. Her Supervisor met with her for an appraisal, asked the right questions without being overly critical - and she was able to confide in this person - and that helped her to get out of her abusive relationship at home and identify how NOT to face that situation again. Work relationships are now good.

Jane has the benefit of experience and hindsight in THIS life. Not from other lives. Therefore what is the point of being reincarnated if it doesn't help you in the here and now?

What makes up her personality? Is this lost when she is reincarnated? If so, then she becomes a totally different person - how is that reincarnation? In the next life, if she is the same personality, is she not going to be predisposed to immerse herself in work and neglect her friends again, or get into abusive relationships, or be the office bitch? What good would living another life be in that case? Yes you will have different experiences - but when one reaches the end of their final reincarnation, do they remember all the lives they've lived at once - thereby knowing all the experiences and lessons?

Told you I didn't 'get it'. Any explanation from someone who truly believes it - well I'd be extremely interested.

[dark magus]

For the most part, I tend to follow a similar line of thought. To believe in reincarnation one also needs to have some concept of Karma.
One school of thought indicates that there is not good or bad karma, just karma. The idea of good karma was created by the hippie generation to justify their way of life and the philosophy they were attempting to create around drugs and "make love..."

Personally, I just can't get my mind around the idea of attaining demerit points for the way I conduct my self that will dictate what sort of life I will earn in the future. As you say, it becomes an endless process, almost a prison of existence.

I've said for some time that when this body dies, my "soul" will be released to rejoin the source. There, much of the energy will merge, sharing the knowledge and the leasons learned. What remains is a divine spark that is our higher self. If required, that spark will take on what energy is needed to bridge the span between the Astral and the physical worlds. That energy will contain whatever bits of information or memories from any number of other beings, possibly from a great number of historic times.

I'll leave it there for now. Any more will just be repeating Anu's comments.

[Lena]

@Anu

I embrace your thoughts. I call what you said 'Universal Energy', 'Universal Consciousness'.

Having in mind what reincarnation is believed to be, supposing that cases such "children being able to speak fluently in a different language (even dead ones) withought being taught" are truthfull, and by what I strongly believe (that the Truth allways lies in the middle of opposite opinions/theories), I've so far come to the following opinion on the subject.. It's possible that I'll change them or alter them throughout my life by experiences or conversations, but right now, this is it:

In addition to what you believe, I give heaviness to the persons' consciousness.
I think that a persons' consciousness tries constantly to reach a higher level during the persons' lifetime. Ignoring (or comply with) that effort is what raises/(results as) Karma..
I don't think that someone carries Karma from a previous life; maybe 'memories' or tendencies via 'memories'... This way, I don't believe you carry any 'failed' or 'succeeded lessons' in 'another life', should that exists.

A soul for me is the combination of ones' consciousness and spirit/psychism. Maybe once the psychism of a person is too charged at the end of a lifetime, the consciousness will not find 'it's way back' to the Source.
Maybe it will haunt something of someone.. Maybe even during birth..
Or maybe the Universe allows that soul to be 're-birthed' in a new body.. (<-- That I prefer)

This way, I accept and justify reincarnation (and ghosts) so far. It's not solid as a belief but this is how far I've managed to go with the whole idea..

About the torment you've mentioned..
Not only those religions that support reincarnation seem to embrace the theory that you have to cope with a lifetime through torments to gain Heaven, The Gardens of Eden, the Elysian Fields an so on.. Maybe I lost your point there or your question was about the many-lives-to-live; thus, the more the torture is? If so, what you don't know (in this case 'remember') cannot hurt you, no?



If I don't make sense due to my English, let me know and I'll erase this post. I like the subject too much to watch it getting derailed or something

[soulfire]

For the most part I agree with you, Lena.  I believe in the immediacy of 'karma' or the universal law of cause and effect.  I do not believe in 'from lifetime to lifetime' karma. 

I believe that individual consciousnesses do reincarnate but only b'cuz this is the playground of God.  How can God/All/universal energy/cosmic muffin/insert title here experience life but through us?  Therefore, for this life I am a handicapped woman trying to recover.  In another I may be a businessman trying to learn compassion.  And in another I may be a thief in prison, or etc.  How that occurs I don't claim to know. 

"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players."  I truly believe that.  Sometimes i need to step to the back of the theater and become the audience to remind myself of that...

[gingerberrycc]

I know you asked for replies from people who "truly believes it," but I'm gonna put my 2 cents in here.

I hold similar beliefs as you when it comes to "reincarnation." I believe that all of our energy is reabsorbed into the Universal All, and then reallocated to form new life (animal, vegetable, mineral, whatever). Our personality is made up of 2 things: 1. Our (somewhat) unique energy makeup as given by the divine. 2. Our experiences, which leave an imprint on our energies like a stamp pushed into clay. Upon death, our energies are redistributed and the impressions are faded (if not altogether gone). Lessons learned are lessons for this lifetime, and have no effect on any future entities our energies may go to.

So in your example I would say that Jane is in fact another person, or people when she dies.

I don't know that I would normally call this reincarnation, but for the fact that it seems to be an easier way to describe it to people. It is difficult for me to answer the question "Do you believe in reincarnation?", because most people would probably classify my beliefs in that way (because I don't believe in Summerlands or Heaven).

[Firesong]

"One school of thought indicates that there is not good or bad karma, just karma. The idea of good karma was created by the hippie generation to justify their way of life and the philosophy they were attempting to create around drugs and "make love..."

Thank you!  I get so bored with the New Age definitions of karma... *sigh*  If you toss up a handful of sand on a windy day, and it hits you in the eyes, that's karma.   It's a metric, not a force to be reckoned with, or beholden to.  It lets us learn from the past by reviewing our unskillful actions and hopefully, prevent them from happening in the future, or at least allowing us to recognize the situation when it arises.

Anu, your explanation makes perfect sense to me.  As a Christian, I believe that Heaven is the state of being one with G-d, and Hell is the state of being totally isolated from G-d, so it's really consistent as far as I'm concerned.

[Anu]

Sorry gingerberrycc, my intention wasn't to try and limit responses to those who only believe in reincarnation. I'm always happy to read everyone's replies.

[ejfinch]

I definitely believe in reincarnation. It seems, to me anyway, to be about the only way to explain things like "child prodigies" My best friend and I are so incredibly close, and have been since we were FOUR years old, that I can't explain that relationship any other way. It sounds a bit ridiculous to say that we have been close for that long, but it is actually true. My parents have always considered her to be their "seventh" kid. I have always been closer to her than my own sisters and the fact that we have only grown closer in the last 41 years, and not apart, just reinforces, in my mind, that we were close in some way in another life. My husband is convinced we were twins in the past! I also wonder about situations where someone treats you incredibly badly, with no apparent explanation. It makes me wonder if maybe I did something really crappy to that person in another life, in another situation, and their "soul" recognizes mine.... I'm starting to sound like a nutball, but these are the things that make me inclined to believe in reincarnation.

[KissTheMiMes]

I like what you had to say ej. I do need to study more on reincarnation and Summerland myself, though. Now I'm going to sound like a nutball, or maybe just a nerd, for this reference.
In "Avatar(The last airbender"[Its awesome people]), the avatar was known by going through a test. The test was to pick certain toys laid out in front of him. A boy named Aang picked the toys the past Avatars had played with, so they knew Aang was the new avatar. He picked the toys his passed lives had liked. He was their present reincarnation, see? So wouldn't that still be the same as your reincarnate(?) liking pistachios that you mentioned Anu?

[Draco3Aero]

i believe in reincarnation. although my thoughts rest on when we ar4 human we make choices whether or not to be "good". when that decision is made and we die if we were true to ourselves and others in the pursuit of happiness we become the animal  that reflects us. on the other hand when we die an untrue life we are spit into many pieces and return as insects. when all the insects die all the pieces come back together, as a human, to make the choice once again. when a animal dies, it returns to human also to make the choice again. its a cycle. there are probably more attributes that need more explaining but this is whats true to me. these are just my thoughts!

blesses

[Emerald47]

A very interesting topic.
Thank you everyone!

[FireWillow]

When a new baby is born, Universal Energy will create it's body and spirit - and somewhere in there might be an echo of a memory of mine, a For those who do, I'm interested in how one would ever learn all of the lessons they are 'supposed' to, in order to be permitted to go to 'Heaven' or 'Summerlands'? Even if for example, someone claims to have some recollection of a 'past life' through regression - surely they wouldn't be able to remember all of the 'mistakes' they made in all of their previous lives in order to have a successful and acceptable do-over?

For me (and if I am correct, most Wiccans), Summerland is not the final destination after having having achieved perfection.  It is a place of rest between incarnations.  The final place is, in my belief, moving to whatever then next step is beyond the incarnations, be it becoming a Spirit guide, or becoming a god.

I mean no disrespect, but that seems like more of a punishment than anything else - a living hell perhaps for someone who believes in reincarnation - because the very fact of their existance means that they haven't got it right. And if they feel they have lived many lives - then they aren't 'getting it' at all - seems more like torment. How can the life lessons that one is supposed to learn, be lessons without any information about the mistakes made previously, to work with?

Surely if you can't remember your previous lessons and goals from other incarnations - then they are new to you anyway!

I suppose what I'm not getting ... well, is the point of it really. Let's look at one life-time for example. Say Jane has a friend that needs her help - but she is busy at work and flicks them off. She then discovers that it was serious and they're in hospital in a coma at the hands of another person. She learns from this experience, and pays attention to her friends in future - to ensure she won't make the mistake again.

Jane has also just come out of her second abusive relationship. This time she's managed to identify why she is enabling this kind of behaviour and makes the conscious decision to change, because of her past experiences.

She's been in Customer Services, and the pent up aggression that she has not been able to vent at home, she's been venting at work - and has been very unpopular with Customers and co-workers alike. Her Supervisor met with her for an appraisal, asked the right questions without being overly critical - and she was able to confide in this person - and that helped her to get out of her abusive relationship at home and identify how NOT to face that situation again. Work relationships are now good.

Jane has the benefit of experience and hindsight in THIS life. Not from other lives. Therefore what is the point of being reincarnated if it doesn't help you in the here and now?

What makes up her personality? Is this lost when she is reincarnated? If so, then she becomes a totally different person - how is that reincarnation? In the next life, if she is the same personality, is she not going to be predisposed to immerse herself in work and neglect her friends again, or get into abusive relationships, or be the office bitch? What good would living another life be in that case? Yes you will have different experiences - but when one reaches the end of their final reincarnation, do they remember all the lives they've lived at once - thereby knowing all the experiences and lessons?

Told you I didn't 'get it'. Any explanation from someone who truly believes it - well I'd be extremely interested.

It is evident that one doesn't remember the lessons of in the human mind.  I believe the lessons learned are retained in one's Spiritual conscious rather than the human one.  IMO, the purpose for reincarnation is not so much to perfect the body, but to perfect the Spirit.  I believe the thought process of the human mind is completely separate from the thought process of Spiritual consciousness.  One's actions in the physical are influenced by this Spiritual consciousness, and these actions are a reflections of previous life lessons.  However, being of free will, we have the choice to act either in harmony with or in oppositions to these lessons, creating a whole new set of Spiritual lessons in the current incarnation.

The only way, IMO, that one would retain the same personality is if one learns nothing from the previous incarnation.  I mulligan if you will.  I believe that when one passes, the lessons of ones incarnation are reviewed with the God.  If one has learned nothing, then your "Groundhog Day" analogy would be instituted.  What one has learned in the last incarnation determines the circumstances in the next.  But I will remind you, although personality might be influenced by the Spiritual consciousness, it is the human mind that controls our actions.

[KissTheMiMes]

I'm not sure exactly who said it, but I was thinking the other day about this topic and wondered if someone Could become a God when they are uh.. I don't know a word for it =/ for lack of better words I'm going to say balanced. What would happen to other Gods though? Would there be like Stadiums full of them eventually or would some return to Earth for the hell of it?

[Carbon]

Say Jane has a friend that needs her help - but she is busy at work and flicks them off. She then discovers that it was serious and they're in hospital in a coma at the hands of another person. She learns from this experience, and pays attention to her friends in future - to ensure she won't make the mistake again.

Jane has also just come out of her second abusive relationship. This time she's managed to identify why she is enabling this kind of behaviour and makes the conscious decision to change, because of her past experiences.

She's been in Customer Services, and the pent up aggression that she has not been able to vent at home, she's been venting at work - and has been very unpopular with Customers and co-workers alike. Her Supervisor met with her for an appraisal, asked the right questions without being overly critical - and she was able to confide in this person - and that helped her to get out of her abusive relationship at home and identify how NOT to face that situation again. Work relationships are now good.

Jane has the benefit of experience and hindsight in THIS life. Not from other lives. Therefore what is the point of being reincarnated if it doesn't help you in the here and now?

What makes up her personality? Is this lost when she is reincarnated? If so, then she becomes a totally different person - how is that reincarnation? In the next life, if she is the same personality, is she not going to be predisposed to immerse herself in work and neglect her friends again, or get into abusive relationships, or be the office bitch? What good would living another life be in that case? Yes you will have different experiences - but when one reaches the end of their final reincarnation, do they remember all the lives they've lived at once - thereby knowing all the experiences and lessons?

I believe in reincarnation but I think the examples you listed are simply things humans learn on their own.  For the most part I believe your personality is different from life to life depending on how your previous life was but there are things that 'stick' with ya.

I believe that when we pass on from this life we gain the knowledge of our previous lives until we are reincarnated again.  I don't really view reincarnation as repeating over and over until your 'soul' is perfect but more as something your soul is required to do (like jury duty for better lack of example ). We come to the earth in human form to serve time and to perfect ourselves but I don't believe a soul is ever 100% perfected. 

My neighbor when I was younger used to say that earth was another planets hell.  I didn't think about it much until I got older but it makes me laugh because there are days where i feel like its true.

[Curt]

I believe in reincarnation. We are placed here to learn. No, I don't mean to learn how to make a million dollars or become a neuro surgeon. We are here to learn about life and what it is all about. Romantising animals as humans or humans as being above animals is NOT where it is at. There is a connectedness with all life...be it a tree, plant, animal of any kind or a mountain. If you think about it....this earth is millions of years old....and for millions of years things have lived on it. Was early man anything like mankind is today. I highly doubt it. Was he more savage? Probably. However savage in this instance is a relative term. It was mentioned in some thread I read that "in the olden times there was harmony between man and animals. Don't make me laugh! The thing is, re reincarnation...as I said, I believe it to be a learning process...not necessarily a karmic thing. Sure Karma can play a large part in it. That is not the main idea however, imho.