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Author Topic: Original Sin  (Read 6770 times)

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Firesong

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2011, 01:39:19 PM »

Original sin is from the Old Testament..... 

Adam and Eve..... 

Loooooooooong before any Saints came into the picture. 

People learn your bible. 



Not exactly... Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. 

Quote
The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.
Jewish Virtual Library

Original sin is a purely Christian construct and isn't even accepted by all... since it's based on Genesis in Torah, and since 3/4 of Torah is unaccessable when it's translated out of the original Hebrew, I tend to lean in the same direction...
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Doom Monkey

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2011, 01:54:49 PM »

I can promise you with all my heart the Old Testament was written before St Augustine was born!  ;)

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cheese

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2011, 02:13:09 PM »

What Firesong is saying is that even though the Old Testament was written before Augustine, the idea of original sin started with the Christians.  The Jews, who complied the Torah and Pentateuch and would presumably have a better idea of what it means, do not have this concept.
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Firesong

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2011, 02:16:02 PM »

What Firesong is saying is that even though the Old Testament was written before Augustine, the idea of original sin started with the Christians.  The Jews, who complied the Torah and Pentateuch and would presumably have a better idea of what it means, do not have this concept.

This... Torah and Pentateuch were written long before the "Old Testament"; Judaism teaches that they were written by G-d, engraved on stone tablets, and given to Moses at Mt. Sinai... somehow most of Christianity missed everything but the 10 Commandments, which don't even apply to them; they're the cornerstone of the Mosaic Covenant between the Hebrew tribes and G-d.
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Serpentium

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2011, 02:17:14 PM »

What Firesong is saying is that even though the Old Testament was written before Augustine, the idea of original sin started with the Christians.  The Jews, who complied the Torah and Pentateuch and would presumably have a better idea of what it means, do not have this concept.
Doesn't the idea of Sin originate in Genesis, (1st book of the Pentateuch) when A&E get booted out of the Garden?  
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Doom Monkey

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2011, 02:24:47 PM »

What Firesong is saying is that even though the Old Testament was written before Augustine, the idea of original sin started with the Christians.  The Jews, who complied the Torah and Pentateuch and would presumably have a better idea of what it means, do not have this concept.

Awww thank you, it was just right over my silly little female head.....
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cheese

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2011, 02:27:23 PM »

Quote
Doesn't the idea of Sin originate in Genesis, (1st book of the Pentateuch) when A&E get booted out of the Garden? 


The justification for Paul's concept comes from there.  However, the Jews who wrote the story would look at it and disagree.

I'd say that Paul was struggling to find a meaning for the crucifixion and he chose to view it through the lens of the ultimate blood sacrifice.  A sacrifice has to have a justification.  Paul's (and Augustine's) justification was that Man's Fall from Grace required a equivalent sacrifice.  They reasoned that the death of God's son was the only thing that could balance it.

Thus they need the idea of Original Sin in order to help explain the Crucifixion.
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Curt

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2011, 02:50:44 PM »

Very interesting...... What it all points up to is the whole thing is man made...as is any religion now, in the past, or future. So.....why would anyone who has a mind just without any further thought just go out and join one??? I can see it if a certain belief sort of "strikes home" with someone....but still. That still leaves this blind obedience thing which some people....well....most in my opinion have this view of "My way is the right way." Yeah....right.....
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cheese

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2011, 05:38:49 PM »

Very interesting...... What it all points up to is the whole thing is man made...as is any religion now, in the past, or future. So.....why would anyone who has a mind just without any further thought just go out and join one??? I can see it if a certain belief sort of "strikes home" with someone....but still. That still leaves this blind obedience thing which some people....well....most in my opinion have this view of "My way is the right way." Yeah....right.....

Well of course.  But that doesn't mean that the religion doesn't contain some Truth.  ;)
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Snake-Man

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2011, 05:56:58 PM »

Doesn't the idea of Sin originate in Genesis, (1st book of the Pentateuch) when A&E get booted out of the Garden?  

They banned the Arts & Entertainment channel from the Garden of Eden??  Wow, that sucks.   :D

Don't mind me, just being a smartass.   ;D
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Old Stoneface

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2011, 06:47:16 AM »

They banned the Arts & Entertainment channel from the Garden of Eden??  Wow, that sucks.   :D

Don't mind me, just being a smartass.   ;D

Thanks for the clarification, Snake. I thought it was the Accident & Emergency department.  I guess it was just right over my silly little female head.....


(Stoneface can outsmartass the smartest of asses in a smartestass contest...)
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Firesong

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »

Awww thank you, it was just right over my silly little female head.....
Not a chance THAT would ever happen... LOL.  Nothin' gets by you... which is one of your most admirable qualities.. ;D
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Firesong

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2011, 10:27:16 AM »


The justification for Paul's concept comes from there.  However, the Jews who wrote the story would look at it and disagree.

I'd say that Paul was struggling to find a meaning for the crucifixion and he chose to view it through the lens of the ultimate blood sacrifice.  A sacrifice has to have a justification.  Paul's (and Augustine's) justification was that Man's Fall from Grace required a equivalent sacrifice.  They reasoned that the death of God's son was the only thing that could balance it.

Thus they need the idea of Original Sin in order to help explain the Crucifixion.

Exactly... and the needed to "Old Testament" to provide a historical basis for the Christ, even though none of it applies to them.

"Judaism regards the breaking of any of the divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being. Sin is any thought, word, or deed that breaks God's law by omission or commission. : (Wikipedia)
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Dawn of War

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2011, 01:17:14 PM »

Those Catholics...I tell ya.
I still participate in Lent because of the Catholics I know.
Do you have a problem with "us Catholics"?

There's nothing wrong with beliefs and I find it extremely rude for you to disrespect it -,-
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Doom Monkey

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Re: Original Sin
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2011, 01:46:09 PM »

Do you have a problem with "us Catholics"?

There's nothing wrong with beliefs and I find it extremely rude for you to disrespect it -,-

I hope you're joking, otherwise I am sure at your next confession you will be subject to a minimum of 5 acts of contrition and a good 50 hail marys just for posting on this board.

Besides, most pagans are just enpowered catholics who have seen the light.  ;)
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