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Author Topic: Pagan moral code  (Read 3993 times)

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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2011, 04:56:01 AM »

Quote Serp:

Realities encroach upon each other all the time, and while we create our own realities, we are certainly not always in control of what we create. Have you never made a poor decision that threatened to bring everything crashing down around you? Or fallen victim to the unseen consequence of a decision that may have been made with the best of intentions? I know I have. Still do, in fact.

Blue:

 I understand. You're completely right ... we make decisions all of the time without being able to anticipate the ramifications of those choices. Not only that but many circumstances are well beyond our control. You could live an impeccable life and still be devastated by war, famine, or flood. The real test of your moral strength though is how you handled it when things were at their very worst. It's so easy to talk the talk but walking the walk will tax you far beyond your limits sometimes.

 As a moral code i would say keep it real & take full responsibility for all of your choices. The alternative is to bullshit yourself and blame everyone and everything else for your circumstances. Once you take full ownership of your situation it opens up the possibility of being able to make a change for the better.

Quote Serp:

 But what struck me with your statement is how quick people are to de-humanise others whose realities impinge upon our own. The junkie who breaks into your car so he can smoke another rock is fundamentally the same as the rest of us, just living with the consequences of poor decision making. Even as he sneaks off with your stereo under his arm, he is still in the game. He's just rapidly running out of options that the rest of us maybe take for granted.

 Blue:

 You're absolutely right about dehumanizing others. Point well made. I wouldn't dispute that ....

 -but-

 Take a closer look at the hard core junkie or alcoholic. Their life is falling apart around them. This disease or illness is dehumanizing them. Their life becomes a lie. Go out in the street and talk with the junkie. You can tell she's lying because her lips are moving. Next .... go into the neighborhood tavern and talk with the long term alcoholic. It won't be hard to get him to talk once he's had a few pints. Listen attentively to his story and you'll likely discover that he was a victim of circumstance and that it was always someone else's fault.

 All is not lost with them. Many will die but a few will hit rock bottom and then fight their way back to live a life of dignity.

 What's rock bottom though ?

 Isn't that the moment of truth ?
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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2011, 05:05:19 AM »

Quote Blue:

As a moral code i would say keep it real & take full responsibility for all of your choices. The alternative is to bullshit yourself and blame everyone and everything else for your circumstances.

 Blue:

 Business as usual in Washington DC. ?  ;D
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 05:06:42 AM by blue »
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Serpentium

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2011, 05:45:12 AM »




Blue: You're absolutely right about dehumanizing others. Point well made. I wouldn't dispute that ....

 -but-

 Take a closer look at the hard core junkie or alcoholic. Their life is falling apart around them. This disease or illness is dehumanizing them. Their life becomes a lie. Go out in the street and talk with the junkie. You can tell she's lying because her lips are moving. Next .... go into the neighborhood tavern and talk with the long term alcoholic. It won't be hard to get him to talk once he's had a few pints. Listen attentively to his story and you'll likely discover that he was a victim of circumstance and that it was always someone else's fault.

 All is not lost with them. Many will die but a few will hit rock bottom and then fight their way back to live a life of dignity.

 What's rock bottom though ?

 Isn't that the moment of truth ?
Not all Junkies are women you know. And they don't lie all the time. Talking to a Junky, (Or anyone else for that matter) on the street isn't enough to tell what kind of person they are. Try living with them for a few years. They're just normal people who need drugs to function properly. Drugs that are only available through illegal/criminal sources. And alcoholics don't drink in Bars/Taverns. They drink alone, or under the Arches, or in the park, stood around a smouldering sofa.
Anyone who has no direct experience of addiction can't understand the dynamics of it properly, preferring the easy path of  "Oh, it's their own fault, screw 'em". Society doesn't withhold insulin from diabetics, or Madopar from Parkinson's sufferers, so why does it withhold an addict's particular drug of choice? It's cheaper, and less damaging all around to let them have access to the drugs they need.
And rock bottom? It's just when all the options have run out.
Serp. Walked the walk. Heard all the talk. So you'd better know your onions on this one, Matey.
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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2011, 06:55:54 AM »

 Yeah ... but it runs the spectrum through all levels of society though Bro. I've been dealing with it first hand all throughout the summer with my wealthy clients. They have the resources and a lot of time on their hands so there's nothing to keep that process of slipping down in check.

 Seriously .... it's gettin' bad .....  :(

 You've got a vested intrest in this Serp. You're too close to the issue. I don't think you can be objective about it.
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Serpentium

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2011, 07:47:33 AM »

I've had to learn to be objective on this, in order to survive.  What is the fundamental difference between your wealthy clients, and the street user? Are your clients possessed of a better morality? (I suspect not) Are they any more intelligent? (I doubt it) More ruthless? (possibly) The main difference is that they are wealthy. They need their drugs just as much, but they don't have to spend 8-10 hours a day running around stealing or whoring to find the money necessary to maintain their addiction. They don't have to suffer the consequences attendant with such a lifestyle. The health issues, the morality slide, the constant daily assault on their self esteem. Even the risk of prosecution is lessened by their wealth. Access to private Healthcare, and Doctors who will prescribe for them instead of street dealers, access to good Lawyers if they should fall foul of the Law, these are the factors that separate the two groups. Take away the wealthy addict's access to his bank account, and you'd be surprised at how quickly that would level the playing field.
So by this reasoning, if you remove the question of having to find the money for illegal drugs, the street addict would be able to function in a normal way, work, raise a family, have the same options as the rest of us.
All of those things that people despise them for, would suddenly not be factoring in the equation. They would no longer be disenfranchised, incarcerated, or ostracised. The advantages of this to society would be immense. Crime levels would drop overnight, the streets would not be stalked by desperate people, Prison populations would plummet, thereby reducing the amount of people who would otherwise be getting trained up into a life of crime.

So, if you truly look at it objectively, "drugs" are just another false flag tactic, deliberately maintained in order to divert people's attentions from the real problem, which is poverty, and the rich/poor divide. The major drugs of addiction are not costly or difficult to produce. But when production, distribution, and possession of these drugs are criminalised, the earnings potential to the person prepared to disregard the Law are phenominal. This more than negates any Laws put in place for their prohibition. And costs the Authorities (and therefore, the public) absolute Billions. And the cost is rising every year. And that's not even including the price of human misery such a set-up takes on people.

Ostensibly, the Laws against drugs are put in place to protect people from the 'ravages of addiction'. So these must be the only Laws, that are implemented, in their most draconian form, against the people they were set up to protect. So now, either we need new Laws to protect people from the Laws that were set up to protect them, or a sensible, practical policy of tolerance, regulation, and availability for those who suffer with addiction.

How's that for moral objectivity?
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2011, 07:57:45 AM »

Blue,

You should suggest NA or AA to those people, depending upon their disease.
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C_A

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2011, 08:57:40 AM »

Keep in mind that the addictions "up heah" might not BE what we would refer to here as "typical".

Some of the clients my neighbor has may be addicted, (and yes, the term is appropriate), to such things as incessant renovation / remodeling...(think Winchester Mansion).

Others, it may be collecting...art, cars, conquests

For others it may be remodeling on a different plane...surgically.

What makes them "better" or "worse"?  Nothing.  Not a doggone thing. 

Of course, the nearly incessant roll of busted meth labs lately makes me think it IS "closer to the bone" than not...
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Serpentium

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2011, 09:20:00 AM »

Speaking of meth, did you know that there were more prescriptions for amphetamines (Duraphet, dexedrine, drynamil) in the 1970's than there were for all other drugs put together? It wasn't particularly problematic then, so why is it a problem now?

Because there is a non-prescription policy, you can only get bathtub amphetamines these days.
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C_A

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2011, 10:52:26 AM »

I wasn't aware of the percentages, Serp, but I recall ALL of that stuff being very easy to get.  I never went in for it, I was adrenal enough in those days...

"We didn't know", (wink), that there was a "problem" in these parts till four of 'em blew up in three weeks...then they started their "push"...busted 19 of 'em in another three weeks, or so "they" claim.  I was amazed in the morning fog that there must have been DOZENS of cars up the hill from me having trouble starting...
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You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2011, 10:57:34 AM »

Ostensibly, the Laws against drugs are put in place to protect people from the 'ravages of addiction'. So these must be the only Laws, that are implemented, in their most draconian form, against the people they were set up to protect. So now, either we need new Laws to protect people from the Laws that were set up to protect them, or a sensible, practical policy of tolerance, regulation, and availability for those who suffer with addiction.

How's that for moral objectivity?

Swell.

I don't believe that there's a sane / thinking person who would disagree with the fact that our drug laws are at LEAST a farce and at MOST downright dangerous to the citizenry-at-large.  But the same can be said for our firearms laws, (which are prime facie unConstitutional out of the gate), our tax code, (ditto), and pretty much ANY other issue that Big Brother, the government seeks to "protect us" from.
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“I’ve come to view Jesus much the way I view Elvis. I love the guy but the fan clubs really freak me out”  ~ John  Fugelsang.
You know that you've created your G-d in your own image and likeness when he hates all the same people as you do.

blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2011, 12:04:32 PM »

Keep in mind that the addictions "up heah" might not BE what we would refer to here as "typical".

Some of the clients my neighbor has may be addicted, (and yes, the term is appropriate), to such things as incessant renovation / remodeling...(think Winchester Mansion).

Others, it may be collecting...art, cars, conquests

For others it may be remodeling on a different plane...surgically.

What makes them "better" or "worse"?  Nothing.  Not a doggone thing. 

Of course, the nearly incessant roll of busted meth labs lately makes me think it IS "closer to the bone" than not...

 I get that .... it's called a surrogate activity.

 The wealthy ... not having anything better to do ... sometimes fall into the trap of investing themselves too heavily in the outcome of a project. They put forth the same amount of time and energy that the rest of us would put into surviving in the world.

 I've run into that as well before.

 This year was different though. It's not just my me ... i've talked with quite a few other business owners in the area. Our "summer guests" this year were more difficult than in years past. Business was off as well too.

 I was never so thankful as when Labor Day finally rolled around. There are still a lot of out of state plates around but the worst of the bunch have gone back to the places that they came from. Things are starting to settle back down again.

 Doin' the carpentry and caretaking thing i spend a lot of time around my customers. Being around so much gives you insight into how people live. When you haul off their trash to the dump and there are bagfulls of empty alcohol bottles all the time you know something is going on.

 Listen attentively to those same people and their story is full of inconsistencies. It's not hard to see straight through to the truth.

 They're basically liars. They lie to themselves, they lie to others, they even lie when it's not in their best intrest to do so.

 It's just a function of the illness but it's time consuming to sort through all of their bullshit and provide good customer service.

 Harder still ... to actually get work done. See ... it's the time that you can bill for that pays the bills. The customer service is what you do so that you can get the work and keep the job running smoothly. With some problem customers it gets to a point where you get so much time invested with them that you can't earn a living.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:12:37 PM by blue »
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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 12:25:25 PM »

Blue,

You should suggest NA or AA to those people, depending upon their disease.

 < sigh > It's different when it's a business relationship and they are your customers. It's a good idea to maintain some distance if you can.

 For the most part i just keep my head down and try to ignore whatever it is that they're doing. The way i figure it is that as long as what someone else is doing isn't directly affecting me then it's none of my concern.

 The thing is .... their problems are starting to affect how i earn my living.
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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2011, 12:40:09 PM »


"We didn't know", (wink), that there was a "problem" in these parts till four of 'em blew up in three weeks...then they started their "push"...busted 19 of 'em in another three weeks, or so "they" claim.  I was amazed in the morning fog that there must have been DOZENS of cars up the hill from me having trouble starting...

 Yeah ... there's a certain implied trust with our neighbors. Ours is a culture of mutual respect and that generally extends to respecting the property rights of others.

 Even the small petty stuff breaks that trust and erodes the quality of life for all of us.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 01:54:23 PM »

< sigh > It's different when it's a business relationship and they are your customers. It's a good idea to maintain some distance if you can.

 For the most part i just keep my head down and try to ignore whatever it is that they're doing. The way i figure it is that as long as what someone else is doing isn't directly affecting me then it's none of my concern.

 The thing is .... their problems are starting to affect how i earn my living.

I can dig it.  I am a proud member of one of those groups and I think all drugs should be legal.  I could care less what my neighbors are doing unless it directly affects me. 

ETA:  My opinion about the legalization of drugs is a personal one and doesn't reflect the opinion of TCC in any way on this matter.   
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 06:06:22 AM by Earthbound Spirit »
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"Oh Well...Whatever...Nevermind"  Kurt Cobain

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blue

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Re: Pagan moral code
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2011, 06:01:03 AM »

I've had to learn to be objective on this, in order to survive.  What is the fundamental difference between your wealthy clients, and the street user? Are your clients possessed of a better morality? (I suspect not) Are they any more intelligent? (I doubt it) More ruthless? (possibly) The main difference is that they are wealthy. They need their drugs just as much, but they don't have to spend 8-10 hours a day running around stealing or whoring to find the money necessary to maintain their addiction. They don't have to suffer the consequences attendant with such a lifestyle. The health issues, the morality slide, the constant daily assault on their self esteem. Even the risk of prosecution is lessened by their wealth. Access to private Healthcare, and Doctors who will prescribe for them instead of street dealers, access to good Lawyers if they should fall foul of the Law, these are the factors that separate the two groups. Take away the wealthy addict's access to his bank account, and you'd be surprised at how quickly that would level the playing field.


 The main reason i brought up the wealthy was to show what it would be like if drugs were deregulated as you suggested.

 Take money and the law out of the mix and what you have is an addict regardless of class.

 It's one thing if recreational drugs and alcohol are used in moderation. It's another thing when you're talking about a regular habit and addiction. Just  because an addict has a regular supply doesn't mean that they're functional. Quite often ... that's not at all the case. The addiction not only impacts the addict but can have a profound impact on those around him/her and society at large.

 Were those Draconian laws set up to protect the addict from the ravages of addiction -or- were they set up to protect everyone else from the ravages of addicts ?

 Personally ... i lean heavily towards individual rights and limiting the scope of government in our lives but there has to be a reasonable limit. Some law is a necessary evil.

 For example: There are some parts of the year that i drive large trucks. Because i have a commercial driver's licence i'm subject to random drug & alcohol testing. I resent like hell that i might someday be asked to produce a specimen but on the other hand i realise that it's good law.

 Unlike many other commercial drivers i'm exempt from the law that limits my workday to ten hours behind the wheel. It's risky enough pulling a 24 - 30 shift ... i can't imagine doing it under the influence. Would you want to be on the road with me if i were ?
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