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[Michelle]

I don't really know why people are so quick to put so much stock in being an apparent "lineaged" wiccan. My understanding of these "traditions" is that they are mostly made-up. Not a lot was ever written down and I am yet to see a real so called book of shadows that is anything over a century old or so.

Trads. About as real as Enochian. And I still can't believe some people see that as real.

Well, if we are going to draw a line between the "classes".........

[dark magus]

Just a real as ........the Catholic Church.
Also made up, just a little older is all.
When dealing with any form of tradition, it's not how old it is but rather what it carries with it.

[C_A]

I wrote an entire thread on it.

Some may consider it a "line between the classes", others will see it as a ladder to climb and still others will see it as a bunch of hooey.  Is it for everyone?  No.  Neither IS Catholicism.  Or Judaism.  Or Shinto, Islam, Calvinism or Scientology.

 Here at TCC we strive to see to it that NO religion is subject to scorn.  Question, yes, scorn no.

I AM lineaged.  It IS MY religion.  It IS every bit as "real", so to speak, as any other religion...yes, ALL religions are "man-made", so stipulated.  What they ARE is a codified road to achieve a communion with the Divine.  Any religion, ANY Divine.  As such, it has validity to it's adherents.  That validity is something that people guard.

And I guard Wicca.  Specifically.  I'll NOT see it derided. 

[Michelle]

I'm not out to pull wicca or witchraft down, it's just time and again I've seen this thing happen where a forum can become really polarised with regards who is lineaged or from a traditional witch family. It makes those of us (who form the vast majority) to feel as if we don't really belong here, as if all the "lineaged" and "trads" just put up with us and barely tolerate us. It's like unless we can prove some form of hereditary connection we just are not taken seriously. We become like the "fluffies" (another term I don't like).

Of course all religions and religious practice is made up, and you are quite correct (CA) in saying it's the belief and the worship that's really the important thing. Just don't throw all that 2nd degree this and that at the rest of us who may actually choose to be solitary practitioners. As a pre-op transgender for instance I am in no way going to go to a coven who practice their worship skyclad (a practice that can so often attract the wrong kind). 2nd degree this and 4th degree that is just about as valid here as my being a level 4 Dungeon Master in a popular role-play game. Keep it to your covens please.

Lineaged and non lineaged can so easily split a forum. CA, you already closed your own thread upon the subject to those "non lineaged" forum members. Obviously, and feeling quite strongly upon this issue, my only recourse was to start my own thread that was open to "everyone" upon the subject.

Fair is fair.

[alyceavary]

I haven't see where an emphasis is placed that "Lineaged" are more important than others in this forum. And I haven't gotten that impression. C_A has ALWAYS treated me fairly and with respect. I suppose that I am a "Natural Witch" because some of the spellwork doesn't really seem too difficult. If there HAS been anything like that directed towards you, I suggest that you take it to the Mods. Again, I may have missed it, if so.........disregard. LOL

[Khara]

Seriously?

I think I am probably one of the few here who can make that claim.  I know my tradition goes back at least 15 generations. 

I don't share my path in detail, I don't accept neophytes, I do not train nor teach others.  It is a family tradition and I don't work with anyone outside of family.  If that makes me seem like I'm stuck up or think I'm better than anyone it isn't true.  It's actually quite simple, it's a family tradition.  I don't know of any lineaged witches who share, teach or mentor their path to outsiders.

It isn't a special club one can join, it's a matter of birth.  I am very open about my path and will, when asked work with anyone on a special project or need.  I have no issues sharing the ideas or principles behind spells or rituals that I have been taught.

I personally don't post a lot here because of the whole copywrite issue and I have a lot of irons in the fire that I don't want snatched and used as someone else's work.  It's already happened more than once (not here for the record) and I refuse to allow anyone else to get credit or paid for my words.

If you feel I'm snotty or stuck up in regards to my path, I apologize, I don't think I've ever said no to anyone when asked for help, my deciding factor being if you are an adult and if you haven't been a complete shithead to me.  You've never asked me anything.

I get asked about Wicca a lot simply because I've done my year and a day and achieved the third degree when in high school and college within a local group of what is now the Piedmont Church of Wicca.  I've said many times, that Wicca just isn't the right fit for me.  It doesn't change that I, at one time, not only thought it was the next logical step in my path, but that I also studied and worked very hard for a number of years to realize it wasn't where I needed to be.

I have never seen anyone get snotty or nasty about being lineaged, we just don't share as most who are lineaged are not Wiccans, but are witches from a family tradition.  It's nothing personal.  We don't share anywhere.  Mainly because somewhere in everyone's tradition of any length there are one or more who were killed for being a witch and you are raised to keep your mouth shut.

It's kind of hard to be a lineaged Wiccan when the tradition only goes back to 1939.  I mean how many generations can that actually be?  So I don't see this as a slam on Wicca, maybe a touch of ignorance in Wicca and how long it really has been around.  More of a slam on witches as, for the most part, we are the ones who come from family traditions which is, the only way one can actually be "lineaged". 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage

[C_A]

It's kind of hard to be a lineaged Wiccan when the tradition only goes back to 1939.  I mean how many generations can that actually be?  So I don't see this as a slam on Wicca, maybe a touch of ignorance in Wicca and how long it really has been around.  More of a slam on witches as, for the most part, we are the ones who come from family traditions which is, the only way one can actually be "lineaged". 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage

The idea of LINEAGE as it pertains to Wicca is that one DOES, indeed, "join a special club".  A coven which has roots that CAN, indeed, be traced back to the covens of Gardner, Sanders, Buckland et. ux, et. al.

As well as MOST of the family-line witches I know do NOT identify themselves as Wiccan is the core issue, here.  I know plenty of Wiccans that couldn't cast a spell to open their umbrella in the rain, but are devout in their worship of the Lord and Lady.  I also know some Voudun and Pow-wows that can whip a spell on you that you wouldn't believe, but wouldn't know the Lord and Lady if they bumped into them in a crowd.

[Khara]

I'm sorry is that not what I said?

[Michelle]

I would so agree with Khara that it's just such a personal thing, such a secret thing (if that is the right word to use). My only bitch against the whole lineaged thing actually stems from another forum - a coven of witches actually - where I was asked if I as a wiccan or a trad witch. Being somewhat simple as I am I had no idea as to how I should answer, I have a belief structure that is pretty close to wicca in most aspects. Well, I guess i out stayed my welcome there as I found it quite uncomfortable - the "trad witches" wanted nothing to do with the "wiccans" and vise versa.

I applaude khara for how she handles her traditional and familial traditions upon the subject. ie: It's not at my expense and she becomes a person of whome I may one day learn something from, rather than just being told I am not a traditional this or that and so I don't really count.

[Khara]

Just because I can trace my path back a number of genrations does not make me any more knowledgable or true to what I believe. 

Those who look down on or talk down to anyone claiming it is because they aren't lineaged is just another form of racism.  This being due to one's religion.

It is no different than Jews trash talking christians or vice versa.

[C_A]

It IS exclusive, yes.  But...discriminatory?  Hardly. 

Bolshevik Weenies(c) aside, we DO tend to keep BOYS in "Boy" scouts and GIRLS in their own club.

I actually have no problem with non-lineaged wiccans.  It's the McWiccans I take umbrage with.

[The Pet Goddess]

Out of curiosity, how far back does one have to go in their geneology to be considered a lineage Wiccan or witch?

In my opinion, being able to trace your lineage back 15 generations, be you witch or not, is quite an accomplishment!   Six generations is as far back as I can find in my family tree.

[Firesong]

I would so agree with Khara that it's just such a personal thing, such a secret thing (if that is the right word to use). My only bitch against the whole lineaged thing actually stems from another forum - a coven of witches actually - where I was asked if I as a wiccan or a trad witch. Being somewhat simple as I am I had no idea as to how I should answer, I have a belief structure that is pretty close to wicca in most aspects. Well, I guess i out stayed my welcome there as I found it quite uncomfortable - the "trad witches" wanted nothing to do with the "wiccans" and vise versa.

I applaude khara for how she handles her traditional and familial traditions upon the subject. ie: It's not at my expense and she becomes a person of whome I may one day learn something from, rather than just being told I am not a traditional this or that and so I don't really count.

As a Christian witch, I imagine I would really break the stereotypes... LOL
Just tell them you're a plain old witchy witch... yep... Khara rocks... seriously...

[C_A]

A lineaged WICCAN can only go as far back as the beginning of Wicca.  WITCHES can go back to time immemorial.  Actually, I can trace Witchcraft back on my Mom's side for three and my Dad's side for eight.

[Khara]

Out of curiosity, how far back does one have to go in their geneology to be considered a lineage Wiccan or witch?

In my opinion, being able to trace your lineage back 15 generations, be you witch or not, is quite an accomplishment!   Six generations is as far back as I can find in my family tree.

I am fortunate that being Irish we keep everything,  I have BOS's (for lack of a better term) going back to my greatX9 grandmothers, I have references going back farther than that.

In truth, most covens will allow you to "lineage out" (give you the credit for a year and a day) with proof of 5 generations and knowing your stuff.