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Author Topic: Traditional Paganism  (Read 4822 times)

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Firesong

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Traditional Paganism
« on: July 26, 2012, 02:05:35 PM »

Herein you will find one of the best references for traditional pre-Christian Paganism I've ever seen; it was off the web for awhile, but at least for now, it's available again.  Check it out....

Traditional Paganism
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:06:12 PM by Firesong »
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 03:21:18 PM »

oooh! Just my cup of tea.

Now let me return the favour.

These 4 videos are awesome. Neil Oliver is a Lecturer in History and quite the BBC star as well. He's an amazing historian and a great film maker. The archaeology and the scholarship behind the discussions of pagan burial rites, religious practice and holy sites is second to none.

The political history of that period is intrinsically tied to the practices of the old faiths and this is so much more approachable for the non academic than a lot of the historiography available in book form.

 A History of Ancient Britain.

Takes us From the Ice Age to the Bronze Age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rTqBjMn1w4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJEDGQdt9Is&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgczBAp2bW4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Icvni0TbFA&feature=relmfu


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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 04:02:33 PM »

Thanks for the link brother.  SE, I will watch your links later on tonight.
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oldghost

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 08:32:43 AM »

Very good Firesong , thanks much for the link.
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »

If you're interested in the ways in which archaeology is able to inform us of the religious practices of our pagan ancestors, this is a fabulous Facebook Group dedicated to investigating and preserving important pagan sites.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pagans-for-Archaeology/32777950029

They're esp active in campaigns to prevent re-burying pagan remains which are often found in places where development applications are pending. Pagan grave sites are not regarded as anything like as politically sensitive as Christian cemeteries are and in the UK especially, where land is always in short supply, thousands of such sites have been destroyed in recent years without proper investigations and little or no pressure to preserve them.

Where the written record is in such short supply as it is with Celtic pagan history, archaeological evidence is truly priceless.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 04:23:55 PM »

Thanks SE for the link.  I will "like" the page the next time I am on FB.
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Serpentium

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 05:46:45 AM »

Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 05:56:48 AM by Serpentium »
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 08:14:05 AM »

Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc

How come you haven't shown me THIS before??
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Serpentium

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 08:30:51 AM »

Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc

How come you haven't shown me THIS before??
I have. Honest. But it's obviously slipped your mind.
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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 08:35:21 AM »

Well, by the definition they give, I am not a traditional pagan either. Nor do I want to be. The whole exclusivity they have forbids it. I'll tell you this much too, the ancient Celts would not have fit into their group anymore than I.

The Celts mined for iron. They dug into the earth to create structures, some believe, were for worship. They cut down trees to build and fashion items. They hunted for meat and went to war to obtain that which their surroundings could not provide. The Celts also seemed to be a little nomadic. They moved if their survival was contingent upon it. They had no affinity for a specific plot of land. Affinity for nature, most likely (by the Gods and Goddesses worshipped), but a particular area, I don't think so.

I don't think they abused the land, but they did not treat it with kid gloves either. I believe they only took what they needed, like most ancient, nature based, farming civilizations did. They did what they had to do to survive and showed appreciation for the things they did have to the Gods and Goddesses. I also believe they looked to the Gods and Goddesses for guidance when things went wrong.

These are just my personal viewpoints and I'm sure they will have probably upset someone, though once again that isn't my intent.

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Firesong

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 02:30:27 PM »

Well, by the definition they give, I am not a traditional pagan either. Nor do I want to be. The whole exclusivity they have forbids it. I'll tell you this much too, the ancient Celts would not have fit into their group anymore than I.

The Celts mined for iron. They dug into the earth to create structures, some believe, were for worship. They cut down trees to build and fashion items. They hunted for meat and went to war to obtain that which their surroundings could not provide. The Celts also seemed to be a little nomadic. They moved if their survival was contingent upon it. They had no affinity for a specific plot of land. Affinity for nature, most likely (by the Gods and Goddesses worshipped), but a particular area, I don't think so.

I don't think they abused the land, but they did not treat it with kid gloves either. I believe they only took what they needed, like most ancient, nature based, farming civilizations did. They did what they had to do to survive and showed appreciation for the things they did have to the Gods and Goddesses. I also believe they looked to the Gods and Goddesses for guidance when things went wrong.

These are just my personal viewpoints and I'm sure they will have probably upset someone, though once again that isn't my intent.

I'm not upset... LOL. but what are your references?  Ever hear of Cromm Crúaich?  The ancient Celts fit in very well with traditional Paganism, as did the Germanic tribes.  Why would they not?  The ancient Celts practiced blood sacrifice, both real and ritual.
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 04:30:50 PM »

The original Jews and Christians stoned women for adultery and put rape victims to death too, but you don't hear anyone calling for a label of "NeoJudaism" or NeoChristianity" do you?

The essence and strength of paganism has always been its ability to adapt to new political and scientific developments without losing contact with the gods. If anything, it was the later Christianity which showed itself unwilling to adapt. When those ancient Greeks were making discoveries about the Cosmos and mathematics which they incorporated into their understanding of the celestial planes, that could well have been one point where we start to see "NeoPaganism" emerge, don't you think?

It's not as if developments in science and mathematics stood still for Millennia and then at some stage around 1700 some blokes with telescopes and slide rules burst upon the scene, throwing all previously held belief systems out the window. There was a continuum of progress and development and people's beliefs and practices adapted to those.

The Inquisition was the institution which attempted to halt progress rather than follow along with it - and even the Roman Church eventually came along as well....though it took a good few centuries (wasnt it Vatican II where evolution was finally accepted?) - and many of the modern evangelicals still have a lot of trouble comprehending that an "ape-like common ancestor" is NOT saying "Great Uncle Harold was a monkey"



- though he may well have been. Everyone's got some relatives they'd refer to be able to prune from the family tree.
 ;D
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marisol

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 06:22:39 PM »

The ancient Celts did as every tribe- survive. What is your point? What did you expect?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:31:33 PM by marisol »
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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 11:18:16 PM »

I guess I should have explained myself better. For that I am sorry.

The "Traditional Pagans" referenced the Celts. They, in a fashion IMO, gave the impression that they were living life as the Celts had, but that didn't quite match up for me.

They said they were caretakers of the Earth...they would never mine for silver or stones. They basically blasted anyone who uses silver or stones in their rituals. But the Celts had to have gotten iron from somewhere (mining?), and what about all the stones moved to make circles, and tombs, and alleged sacred places? What about the trees they would have had to cut down to fashion weapons, and homes, etc. etc. etc? None of that could be classed as earth friendly.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

The Celts may not have destroyed the land, but they didn't seem too worried about drawing from it what they needed or wanted either. This is where the whole doing what they had to do to survive comes in. They didn't have the luxury of being as picky as this group seems to be. By this alone, the actual Celts would not have been accepted by this group, or most of us for that matter. 

Next, they mentioned their "sacred land". The land on which they live. Land passed down through time. Okay, fine and dandy, no problem. I'm happy for them, but surely they can not think the Celts valued a specific area. After all, the Celts left Germany and went into France (Gaul). From there they went into Wales and then gradually into Ireland. Seems like they valued freedom and their own way of life more than a particular piece of land. So this didn't add up for me either.

Next, they said the only way a person can be a Traditional Pagan was if they were born into it or married one of them. They also said that there is no way anyone who claims to be a "Traditional Pagan", and lives outside of their community, is a traditional pagan. Well, what the heck do they class as a "Traditional Pagan"? And what gives them the right to think they can coin the two words together? Especially since the term "pagan" is technically a more modern concept. The ancients did not call themselves pagans.

Not only that, but I knew the definition of "traditional" and "pagan" long before I ever heard of this group, or village, or whatever the heck they are. Maybe someone classes themselves a traditional pagan because they are trying, to the best of their ability, to commune with their deities as close to the ways the ancients would have. Maybe they have their more modern house laid out like the ancients had theirs. Is that not traditional in it's own way? It's kind of like turkey being a tradition of Thanksgiving or a May Pole is on Beltane. But according to them, no one but them is a traditional pagan.

 No they aren't full of themselves. Not in the least.  ::)

Also, they claimed to put the website up to get the record straight because there were people claiming to be one of them. Okay, who are those people. Where are these claims? Or where they referring to those who say they are traditional pagans. Once again, it makes me question what their definition of a traditional pagan is. And why the heck do they have the website in the first place. Why bother telling anyone about themselves at all if they are so exclusive? Why come off as, IMO, so high and mighty? It makes no sense to me.

I got the impression, and it's probably just me, but it almost seems like they were basically inferring their way is the only way--kind of like a promised people type of thing--and the rest of us could go to rot. Well, I had never heard of them until this thread, so I found it all the be rather irritating to say the least.

Now I may have completely misunderstood their website, but I don't think I did. So neither I, the Celts, or most of the people on this message board would be in their league.

Also, instead of having a hissy fit over others using the term traditional pagan, which can be a very broad description of ones self depending on the situation, maybe they should come up with a name for their little group. There are Wiccans, they call themselves Wiccans, and they seem to be doing all right with a specific name. Then the various Christian religions seemed to give themselves specific names, and they're doing okay. Maybe these people should do the same.

Essentially, they got on my nerves and I was spouting off about it. LOL

I'm sorry this is so long, but it was the only way I felt I could convey myself more clearly.
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marisol

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 11:50:59 AM »

Firesong thank-you, very interesting site. I do see Traditional Pagans are a bit different than
Modern Pagans. Especially in the history regarding blood sacrifice. Artemis was a very dark goddess which I'm sure was avoided if possible. Her need for blood sacrifice included death.
Today if blood sacrifice is called for the cut is viewed as the surrender to god or goddess. I
hope, although I don't know all.

I'll have to do more research on Traditional Pagans.
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