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Author Topic: Traditional Paganism  (Read 5447 times)

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lucifer

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2012, 02:58:45 PM »

Just curious... why would you think the ancient Celts weren't what we refer to as traditional Pagans?  By traditional Pagan, I mean a pre-Christian Pagan...
The word traditional refers to the act of passing something from one generation to the next.

It'd be like refering to the original Thanksgiving as traditional, IMO. It's semantically wrong because it wasn't yet a tradition (as it hadn't yet been passed down). They were pre-Christian Pagans... yes.

I did try to make a point to mention that it was only semantics, though. ;)
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2012, 03:34:58 PM »

That is one of the definitions of traditional.  There are a couple of other ones.  Just sayin'
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2012, 06:00:02 PM »

Just curious... why would you think the ancient Celts weren't what we refer to as traditional Pagans?  By traditional Pagan, I mean a pre-Christian Pagan...
The word traditional refers to the act of passing something from one generation to the next.

It'd be like refering to the original Thanksgiving as traditional, IMO. It's semantically wrong because it wasn't yet a tradition (as it hadn't yet been passed down). They were pre-Christian Pagans... yes.

I did try to make a point to mention that it was only semantics, though. ;)

The Ancient Celts were not a phenomenon which came and went within a few decades. Their society existed for centuries. They passed their faith, their rituals, their holy sites and their  practical lifestyle skills down from one generation to the next.

Which of these generations, in your semantic  (or is that pedantic) opinion were the "original" ones and at what point did they become "Traditional"?

eta: And in my tradition - the Australian aboriginal one, the gods and goddesses (known to us as spirits btw) did not own the land either...the land owned all of us - them in especial.

It is my understanding that in many NA cultures the same basic premise is held to be an eternal truth:

Wars are fought to see who owns the land, but in the end it possesses us. Who dares say he owns it, is he not buried beneath it?
– Cochise, Chiricahua Apache

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
– Ancient Native American Proverb

We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home.
– Australian Aboriginal Proverb

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
– Chief Seattle

Anywhere is the center of the world.
– Black Elk, Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux

There is only one great thing
The only thing
To live to see the great day that dawns
And the light that fills the world
.
– Anonymous Inuit


And an old Irish saying that my Gran used often to quote - from her gran and prolly hers and all, to speak of how we learn and grow out of the wisdom and experiences of those who came before us:

I scath a chéile a mhaireann na daoine.
( People can only live in each other’s shadows.)

« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:14:28 PM by Scorched Eartha »
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lucifer

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2012, 06:20:46 PM »

The Ancient Celts were not a phenomenon which came and went within a few decades. Their society existed for centuries. They passed their faith, their rituals, their holy sites and their  practical lifestyle skills down from one generation to the next.

Which of these generations, in your semantic  (or is that pedantic) opinion were the "original" ones and at what point did they become "Traditional"?
Before it was a tradition, it was a ritual which was practiced as a means of: Explaining what the sun was, teaching your children how to hunt and gather food (and blessing said food as a thanks to your dieties), etc. etc.

As soon as they became able to say, exactly, that the sun was a ball of burning gas, the ritual of sun-worship became a tradition. As soon as hunting for food became moot (with invent of modern farming techniques) hunting became a tradition.

The originals were the ones who practiced their rituals as a way of sustaining their life and explaining that which they could not explain. The traditionalists are those who, out of respect, celebrate the way of life that their ancestors (or spiritual ancestors) lived without the necessity of doing so as a means of continued living.
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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2012, 10:02:22 PM »

SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.

As for the use of Traditional, reading the discussion in some ways reinforces my feelings on that part. Traditional is such a broad word, as is pagan, so how can any group call themselves Traditional Pagans but then say no one else can? They can cal themselves whatever they want. I just don't think they should prevent others from using the term if they so chose. It's just too pushy, IMO.

I will say the Celts were traditional. Most cultures are. They had a set way of life, a set way of doing things, and rituals specific onto them. I can not, however, call them pagans. Pagan is a modern term. As far as I am concerned the Celts were ancient ancestors whose ways were clouded and muddled within the annuls of time through various interferences and meddling.
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Serpentium

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2012, 12:21:55 PM »

SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.


The ancient Celts were trophy hunters.They collected the severed heads of their vanquished enemies, and mounted them on short poles, outside their houses. The number of heads denoted one's status and on cold Winter's nights, they would sit around the fire, and recount blow for blow how they slew each one, in boasting competitions. 

"Of great renown was Torik Two-tooth, but I took my mighty axe, Brainbiter, and with one fell blow, split him it twain, from shoulder to hip. The red river did then spurt from his veins like a burst hog, then I cut his ugly head from his twitching corpse. It's the third one on the left, as you walk past my mud hut".

Great thing, tradition, isn't it?
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marisol

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2012, 04:34:54 PM »

Firesong I didn't understand that Celts were being referred to as Traditional Pagans( especially exactly as the ones today). I will go back and reread. Thanks.








t
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Serpentium

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2012, 09:15:59 PM »

Even the term "Celt" can be misleading when applied to "Tradition". Exactly how extensive the Celts really were, and their historical origins are hotly debatable. The standard accepted view that the Celts emerged in Central and Eastern Europe, and spread Eastward as far as the Carpathian basin, and Southwards into the Balkans and Anatolia, is only tenuously supported by evidence. There is no archaeological or textual evidence that supports any Westerly Celtic migration at this time (6th-4th Centuries BC) But the earliest Greek and Roman texts mention that the Celtic language was spoken in the South West of the Iberian peninsula as early as the 8th century BC. 

By the C6th BC, when classical sources begin, there were Celtic speakers in Iberia, Gaul, and (possibly) Britain & Ireland, which suggests the origins of the first Celts were on the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. The later, and well documented Celtic diaspora Eastwards around 400 BC only applied to the inland Eastern and Central European Celts, not the Atlantic communities.

So if the thesis of the Westerly origins of the earliest Celtic culture and tradition is to be accepted, and with the premise that language is the unifying factor for the ethnic origins of an identifiable culture, then the origins of all things "Celtic" actually has it's roots deep in the prehistory of the earliest European Atlantic peoples, and not in central and Eastern Europe at all. Which kind of throws a spanner at the veracity of all Celtic "tradition", as posited by the reconstructionist body of mainstream Celtic Historians.

So it goes. Much of what is held to be Celtic tradition, may actually be inherited from Mesopotamian sources, and was picked up by the Eastern periphery of Celtic peoples due to their Geographical  proximity to these earlier cultures at the time of the first classical references to the Celts.


And the roots of genuine Celtic tradition may very well have been formed half a continent away, and be yet to be empirically examined to any great extent. Food for thought, isn't it?     
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:17:00 PM by Serpentium »
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marisol

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2012, 09:55:03 PM »

Thanks cutie pie that helps some.In reading about these Traditional pagans or Celts they refer to
modern pagans as Wiccans and we know that is not a true discription for all pagans.  Traditionals are just so alien to me, its just difficult for me to put the pieces together. I'll have to read further.
Sorry to seem like such  a dummy. This is very interesting to me, I've just never explored it much
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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2012, 10:19:01 PM »

SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.


The ancient Celts were trophy hunters.They collected the severed heads of their vanquished enemies, and mounted them on short poles, outside their houses. The number of heads denoted one's status and on cold Winter's nights, they would sit around the fire, and recount blow for blow how they slew each one, in boasting competitions. 

"Of great renown was Torik Two-tooth, but I took my mighty axe, Brainbiter, and with one fell blow, split him it twain, from shoulder to hip. The red river did then spurt from his veins like a burst hog, then I cut his ugly head from his twitching corpse. It's the third one on the left, as you walk past my mud hut".

Great thing, tradition, isn't it?

LOL. Yes, tradition is wonderful. Especially when it keeps you fed and your enemies at bay.  ;) I knew they took the heads of their enemies as trophies and piked them in front of their homes, but did they kill animals solely for the trophy or were the trophies just a bonus added to the meat and skins? The waste of meat and skins, et cetera, to garner nothing but a trophy was what I was talking about, sweetie.

Even the term "Celt" can be misleading when applied to "Tradition". Exactly how extensive the Celts really were, and their historical origins are hotly debatable. The standard accepted view that the Celts emerged in Central and Eastern Europe, and spread Eastward as far as the Carpathian basin, and Southwards into the Balkans and Anatolia, is only tenuously supported by evidence. There is no archaeological or textual evidence that supports any Westerly Celtic migration at this time (6th-4th Centuries BC) But the earliest Greek and Roman texts mention that the Celtic language was spoken in the South West of the Iberian peninsula as early as the 8th century BC. 

By the C6th BC, when classical sources begin, there were Celtic speakers in Iberia, Gaul, and (possibly) Britain & Ireland, which suggests the origins of the first Celts were on the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. The later, and well documented Celtic diaspora Eastwards around 400 BC only applied to the inland Eastern and Central European Celts, not the Atlantic communities.

So if the thesis of the Westerly origins of the earliest Celtic culture and tradition is to be accepted, and with the premise that language is the unifying factor for the ethnic origins of an identifiable culture, then the origins of all things "Celtic" actually has it's roots deep in the prehistory of the earliest European Atlantic peoples, and not in central and Eastern Europe at all. Which kind of throws a spanner at the veracity of all Celtic "tradition", as posited by the reconstructionist body of mainstream Celtic Historians.

So it goes. Much of what is held to be Celtic tradition, may actually be inherited from Mesopotamian sources, and was picked up by the Eastern periphery of Celtic peoples due to their Geographical  proximity to these earlier cultures at the time of the first classical references to the Celts.


And the roots of genuine Celtic tradition may very well have been formed half a continent away, and be yet to be empirically examined to any great extent. Food for thought, isn't it?     

Thank you for posting this. I always learn something new when I read your posts. Just goes to show the libraries near me are terrible.  :-p Looks like I may have to purchase books to read. Any recommendations?

Thanks cutie pie that helps some.In reading about these Traditional pagans or Celts they refer to
modern pagans as Wiccans and we know that is not a true discription for all pagans.  Traditionals are just so alien to me, its just difficult for me to put the pieces together. I'll have to read further.
Sorry to seem like such  a dummy. This is very interesting to me, I've just never explored it much

Don't feel bad, babe. The traditional pagan's website has me so confused I don't know my bahookie from a hole in the ground. On one hand, I can clearly see where they are coming from, or at least understand their reasoning. But on the other I still feel like they are flipping everyone the big ole bird. LOL.
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 05:41:07 AM »

Another good series of BBC Documentaries. There are 4 of them.
The Pagans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1oZdcXJgNE
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oldghost

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 06:28:15 PM »

They were not trophy hunters as we know it today , but depending on where they live there was competition to see who could bring in the most or largest game . This was used to see who would be the lead hunter. Every piece of the game was used , could be that the antlers of the largest animal hunted were mount over the door way of the best hunter to let everyone see how great a hunter he/she was.
The origins of the word Pagan comes many from the hated romans , and means someone that lives in the countryside or outside of civilization. Aka children of nature .
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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2012, 09:18:11 AM »

Thank you Scorched Eartha and oldghost.
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C_A

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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2012, 09:33:07 AM »

I have only watched the first one so far. 

Thank you, SE.  He's nigh as good as Michael Wood or David Starkey.  I'll be researching him further.
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Re: Traditional Paganism
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2012, 04:46:17 PM »

You are most welcome NPM .
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