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[auntygreens]

I am not sure this is in the right place.

And these dilemmas are exactly why I needed to come back here.

my first sort of question...

Do you feel it is better to have unbroken faith that is solid or broken faith that you return to that you know will always be bitter sweet?

I don't mean untested faith.  Because I don't think that really exists.

My second question, which came about from the struggle with my third question: If you make Jell-o in the blender and it gets frothy... (and it does.  trust me on this, it does and don't ask WHERE my mind was when I did this) is it still considered Jell-o when the froth gels as froth, or is it considered now mousse?  Because it seems to me that you could do time/problem stop rits with this, using the colors, but also air and water... Just a thought.

My third is the most serious and my "well duh, get online and ask people who have also had similar thoughts" moment.  I feel I am in an ethical quandary.  I am trying to decide what is right for me.  Not who is right or who is wrong.

I am a bookkeeper.  A by-the-book, conservative bookkeeper who likes to keep her nose clean.  The cleaner the better, which also leads to another jell-o issue that isn't easily worked into everyday conversation.  I was raised to play fair.  I have not been dealt a fair hand.  I don't think many people have.  I was raised to be compassionate, self-aware to the point of brutal self-honesty, and to see things from other people's perspectives.  I am stuck between my ideals and my reality.  Which brings me to my point.

I have worked for two different men now that are both "salesmen."  They hustle.  They squeeze every penny they can into their own pockets.  Personally, I think that denying fair treatment to others for personal gain is disgusting.  But these men do not have the money problems I do.  Their families are successful.  In many senses of that word.  They do not get bogged down in crap like I do.  They are good at denying other people.  And good at not accepting other people's bs.  Their denial often offends my sense of fairness and balance.

I think of these people as "sharks" in my mind.  Soulless predators.  And yet... we need predators.  I look to nature and I see raptors that kill mercilessly, and at the same time, still take care of their family units.  I see species that have little motherly instinct, such as bettas and allegators, survive and thrive.  Our cats are definitely predators, but they are our willing children and affectionate beyond belief.

How much should I let my idealism get in the way of dealing with reality?  That is more blunt and brutal a question than I mean it to be, but it is the best description I have at the moment.  There must be a way to blend the two without letting either break me into little pieces again.

Any thoughts?

And, before anyone asks- the other jell-o comment I said to frogprince the other night.  "Please pass me a tissue.  I need to clean off my nose, because it just got hit with an avalache of jell-o."

[lucifer]

Are you saying that you don't like helping people who are dishonest? If you are, I can't say that I blame you for feeling that way.

That being said, that's probably just some form of pride standing in the way of what might be the financial gains that your family needs to survive. If you need their business to keep food on the table, then keep doing it (maybe charge them more to make fair work and a point if you can get away with it). If you can afford to live without their business, THEN DROP THEM!

It all comes down to doing what you have to to make ends meet, and if that means that you have to deal with scum (or clean scum out of a pond for that matter) then do it!

That's just my thoughts, but I really agree with the feeling that dishonest people (``hustlers'') don't deserve anything but the bad karma which they've accrued

::double-edit::
If you don't like that others aren't playing fairly an option is always to learn to play by ``their rules''. This means that if someone is cheating you then it's fair for you to cheat them back (or at least try anyway)

::first edit::

and to the question of faith: I don't think that true faith can break. I think that if what you had before at some point broke, then what it was wasn't really faith. It might have been "confidence" which was challenged and went away? I don't know, I'm just making this up as I go along so someone please feel free to step in and correct this edit part

[naturalpaganmomma]

auntygreens, I can't say I am political, be it conservative or liberal. I use to be political, but I just couldn't stomach it anymore. I do like order, but I am possibly a little more flexible with chaos than you may be. I also can't proclaim to be a great mind of any sort. I can only be honest about how I perceive things, so here it goes.

As I do not know exactly what type of faith you are referring to, I will do the best I can to answer regarding faith in general.

When it comes to faith, I do not believe a broken faith is a real faith. Faith is specific and relative to the situation or topic. You can have faith in disappointment as it is there and you are feeling it, but can you have faith in what is disappointing you? I don't think so. If you're disappointed, it most likely means something is missing or off or in flat out conflict with you. In other words, you can have faith that something is a lie, but can you have faith that that lie is the truth? Nah ah. Nope. Doesn't work that way. But as I said, faith is also relative to the particular topic or situation.

For example, do I have faith in the human race as a whole? Hell no! To me the human race as a whole is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine and about as reliable as a melted jelly bean on hot pavement and less intelligent by far. (Now mind you, I say this even though I am trying to be a more positive person. It just goes to show I am far from perfect and will most likely always have a little bit of the jaded within me.)  Despite my feelings on the human race as a whole, if I were asked, do I have faith in certain members of the human race? Hell yes! I have met people in my life that were and are phenomenal individuals. They carry themselves with dignity, integrity, honesty, and intelligence, and their mere existence is too far and few between for my taste. They are the type of people I aspire to be like, but know I have a long way to go if I ever get there.

You see? Faith is absolute, but it is also relative. So you have to ask yourself, what do you really have faith in? Once you figure that out, things will seem a little more clear. You may not have faith in something as a whole, but their may be parts of that whole you do have faith in. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean your faith is broken, it just means it's very specific--like mine; like many.

As for the frothy jello, does it matter what you call it? If you like it, and it still tastes sweet, does its name matter? Does it truly need to be defined, or is it better to just enjoy it? For me, I couldn't care less what it was called, I would concentrate more on enjoying it.

Now, for the sharky-business-jacklags you are referring too, I don't like people like that either. The problem is? They exist and they always will. There will always be some jerk or jerkette who profits from someone else's misery or swindling them out of their hard earned money. I believe such moral, if not legal, criminals are necessary, even if I do not like it, but that's because I believe in balance.

I believe everything sits upon a circle, so everything has it's opposite. And even though there are gray areas between the opposites, the opposites upon the circle create balance. The gray areas in between is where we usually get hung up and that's when we have trouble seeing balance. We begin to question where we are suppose to be, which leads to the answer...

I always say, you can not control others or situations that may arise. You can only control how you react to them.

They don't care. You do. You can not control what they do on the job, but you can control what you do in your own free time. If they do not care to make a difference, than help maintain the balance by doing something good for your fellow man in your own personal life. That's what I do. I can't save the world. I can't make other people care, but I can do what I can for others.

I may not have faith in the human race as a whole, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to help it or not care about it. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't hold out hope for it. I can only be me, and do what I can when I can. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope this helps. Sometimes what seems clear to me, confuses everyone else. 

[Scorched Eartha]

I'd find it very difficult to reconcile helping anyone who was ripping off an ordinary punters,. Are they shaving excess commissions from working couple for aluminium siding? Selling them cheap after market car parts as factory produced quality ones? Then no deal - there are other ways to make a living than stealing from people trying to make an honest one.

If on the other hand they're ripping off larger entities - corporates, banks, the tax man - well that's a different option. They're fair game. They steal and cheat and finagled their way to wealth - a taste of their own medicine is well called for.

As for the faith thing. There's nothing worth believing in that doesn't raise doubts and questions constantly. If you believe blindly and with no break at all, you're a zealot and may as well toddle off to a Pentecostal prayer house to be told what to think and feel and do at every turn.

The Jello I'd call jemousse.

[Firesong]

Auntigreens,

Ethics are such a personal issue.  My only advice?

To quote Polonius:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!

[marisol]

auntygreens Firesong kinda beat me to it.  I agree with him wholeheartedly. What you allow
into your life is up to you. I personally believe we can have a break in our faith. Because I have had one, long ago. It took me some time to find myself again and to find a new faith which is much more fulfilling than the first. Our lives are what we make of them and how we value what
we have.
I have a lot of faith in humankind. I think we have much potential to be more than we are. But
we must always keep that formost in our minds. To strive always forward, never back.

There will always be those guilty of being less, they deserve  no place in our lives. I will not except them in mine, but you must follow your own conscious. Goddess Bless.

[auntygreens]

Thank you.  I will think on everything that has been said.  And... if no one minds, continue the conversation.

My faith.  Hmm.  This is something I knew well, even if i couldn't fully define it in words to another person.  a simple set of feelings that had very complex reactions in the remainder of my existence.  as, i think, it should be.  right now, the fundamentals are the same.  but the manifestations are more what i question.

i used to believe that when someone was suffering, you help them.  but now i wonder.  perhaps they are suffering and struggling simply because they need to, in order to advance in themselves.  and, i don't mean ignore those who are helpless.  that is, in my mind, still without question.

but something i have noticed in both of the men i am referring to.  they struggle with the day to day.  they both have handicaps that tug at my compassion.  And yet, they both cook the books as much as possible, to get away with what they can.  i feel used.  THEY have no compunction about it.  and yes, while a bank definitely makes money off of people, i still believe in fair deals.  if a person makes an ACH transfer error, then, well, they should pay the fines associated with that error, no matter what the circumstances are with their bank.  throwing their weight around to get out of paying the fines that are a result of the person's error, not the bank's error, i have a problem with. 

i interviewed with a man the other day that has been audited by the IRS twice.  and he still believes that he can do whatever the heck he wants without being fined or shut down for it.  that there are no legal ramifications to his bookkeeper for the choices he makes and tells the bookkeeper to do.

Do i think that banks and the irs play dirty pool? yes.  but i also feel that if you don't cook it, play fair with the local branch manager, and take every legal and legally clean deduction you can, you would come out better in the end.  you have integrity as well as a tight bottom line.

i am asked so frequently how creative i am.  meaning, how creative can i get with bookwork.  i hate it.  i think that if you make an agreement with someone, you stick to it, instead of constantly finding a way to maneuver around it.  these men don't.  they look for every edge they can.  and having a simple conversation with them can lead to them having you under their thumb in an instant, if you admit to something that is a grey area.  such as having a pet you are not supposed to.  they can and will threaten your personal life to get you to do what they want.

i also used to believe that i balanced out these people.  that i should be balancing out these people.  now...  now i am not so sure.  lets call boss 1, "j" and boss 2 "b".  when i worked for j, i took his company and turned it around.  from breaking damn near every law you could think of, to a tightly run, clean business.  the expenses went up.  but his wife was relieved because she was no longer looking over her shoulder.  i spent time getting back insurance audit money in excess of $85K and $55K two years respectively, simply because i didn't cook the books the way j had.  i cut the office expenditures in half.  i got creative in cutting expenses.  not in reporting those expenses.  i was repaid by having the raise that i agreed to not take for 2 years in a row given to someone else. 

the chickens have come home to roost.  j's company is folding simply because there is no one there to fight with him to keep it running smoothly.  but i also feel bad because nearly 15 people are also out of work, with a handful on the way.  my faith previously called?  not sure how to put it.  not that i was necessarily responsible for those people, because in ways i was.  but because i fought with j, there was some prosperity for those people.  i am gone, they are out of work.  those that i have reconnected with after their lay-offs and have found other work state that they are happier with the new positions they have found.  but there aren't that many who have found work.  and again, i am not responsible for whether or not they do.  i know this.

i wonder if i had let j get caught with what he was doing would have made a difference sooner for those people.  i can't change the past.  but i can change those same choices i am faced with now with "b."  because b is now playing fast and loose with his contract terms and wanting me to change the software to write checks other than "as is."  he is in lawsuits with his partners and using my skills and knowledge to find an edge over those people, without me really knowing why he is asking the questions.  he bumbles and fumbles the questions so much i do not know if he is pulling a "matlock" or is really having difficulty in understanding.  and then, all of a sudden, i find out after the fact.  he asks questions in such a way as to get only the answer he wants.

i am getting paranoid in working in this place.  so... do i hold to my ideals or do i turn into a shark?  this is why i am looking for a middle ground.

i have already decided to leave where i am.  it is unhealthy there.  for me.  and, for once, i do not feel obligated by other people's needs to be saved to stay.

i just want to learn to stay out of the middle, in the future.  not to duck things that i am really responsible for- you know the saying- all it takes for "evil" to win is for good men to do nothing.  i don't want to do nothing.  but i think, in a lot of ways, i am making my life harder than it needs to be, somehow.

[lucifer]

::edit::
the original content of this post has been removed for potential legal issues

[Draconis Rex]

This is indeed quite the quandry. From my own standpoint, I would suggest that you put your foot down and let ALL concerned know from the outset, You have principles and you have your own ethics and under no circumstances is anyone going to compromise these. If they want to be devious or underhanded then so be it, but they must do it without your help.

Now comes the interesting part; In order to protect yourself, you must be a little devious yourself. You keep copies of these dubious transactions in a completely seperate file that ONLY you know about. Hopefully these will remain unmolested because you have already made your position clear, but should the need arise these files are where you can get at them.

I know how this all sounds, and really I don't know anything about you but this would be my way to roll. Firesong quoted Polonius in an earlier post and I would be inclined to go with that. "To thine own self be true". I would feel I was betraying myself and my principles otherwise. I would hope never to be put into the position you seem to be finding yourself in... Really sux!

I wish you well in whatever it is you decide to do.

[auntygreens]

I think this has helped me quite a lot.  Thank you for all of your observations.

I don't have an answer.  Not yet.  But I feel more solid in some of my decisions.   A lot more solid.  And, it helped me directly today.  I do not care for affusive?  effusive? flattery.  "b" seems to think i will stay simply because he has a need, he is overly suave, and is willing to throw money at me.  i was able to tell him, without compunction or guilt, that this was not my fight.  if he and his partners can not get along, then there is no compromise to be had and any advice i give him is useless, no matter who is right or wrong.  b refuses to see his part in things.  so.  not my fight.  not my struggle.  i put the responsibility squarely back on his shoulders where it belongs.  i was straight with him in that i do not like being there.

he is trying to make the emotional connection that he and i are in this boat together.  i saw through that today.  and remembered to keep my mouth shut, other than to re-state that this is not my fight and he will continue to bleed staff until he gets the anger and game playing down to a tolerable level.

the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.

[lucifer]

the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.

My opinion on this one is to apply for a job within the IRS (you're a citizen of the US, right?). Then you can make a lifetime out of finding dishonest scum like these gentlemen and fining them/jailing them for their criminal behaviors.

[Firesong]

Thank you.  I will think on everything that has been said.  And... if no one minds, continue the conversation.

My faith.  Hmm.  This is something I knew well, even if i couldn't fully define it in words to another person.  a simple set of feelings that had very complex reactions in the remainder of my existence.  as, i think, it should be.  right now, the fundamentals are the same.  but the manifestations are more what i question.

i used to believe that when someone was suffering, you help them.  but now i wonder.  perhaps they are suffering and struggling simply because they need to, in order to advance in themselves.  and, i don't mean ignore those who are helpless.  that is, in my mind, still without question.

but something i have noticed in both of the men i am referring to.  they struggle with the day to day.  they both have handicaps that tug at my compassion.  And yet, they both cook the books as much as possible, to get away with what they can.  i feel used.  THEY have no compunction about it.  and yes, while a bank definitely makes money off of people, i still believe in fair deals.  if a person makes an ACH transfer error, then, well, they should pay the fines associated with that error, no matter what the circumstances are with their bank.  throwing their weight around to get out of paying the fines that are a result of the person's error, not the bank's error, i have a problem with. 

i interviewed with a man the other day that has been audited by the IRS twice.  and he still believes that he can do whatever the heck he wants without being fined or shut down for it.  that there are no legal ramifications to his bookkeeper for the choices he makes and tells the bookkeeper to do.

Do i think that banks and the irs play dirty pool? yes.  but i also feel that if you don't cook it, play fair with the local branch manager, and take every legal and legally clean deduction you can, you would come out better in the end.  you have integrity as well as a tight bottom line.

i am asked so frequently how creative i am.  meaning, how creative can i get with bookwork.  i hate it.  i think that if you make an agreement with someone, you stick to it, instead of constantly finding a way to maneuver around it.  these men don't.  they look for every edge they can.  and having a simple conversation with them can lead to them having you under their thumb in an instant, if you admit to something that is a grey area.  such as having a pet you are not supposed to.  they can and will threaten your personal life to get you to do what they want.

i also used to believe that i balanced out these people.  that i should be balancing out these people.  now...  now i am not so sure.  lets call boss 1, "j" and boss 2 "b".  when i worked for j, i took his company and turned it around.  from breaking damn near every law you could think of, to a tightly run, clean business.  the expenses went up.  but his wife was relieved because she was no longer looking over her shoulder.  i spent time getting back insurance audit money in excess of $85K and $55K two years respectively, simply because i didn't cook the books the way j had.  i cut the office expenditures in half.  i got creative in cutting expenses.  not in reporting those expenses.  i was repaid by having the raise that i agreed to not take for 2 years in a row given to someone else. 

the chickens have come home to roost.  j's company is folding simply because there is no one there to fight with him to keep it running smoothly.  but i also feel bad because nearly 15 people are also out of work, with a handful on the way.  my faith previously called?  not sure how to put it.  not that i was necessarily responsible for those people, because in ways i was.  but because i fought with j, there was some prosperity for those people.  i am gone, they are out of work.  those that i have reconnected with after their lay-offs and have found other work state that they are happier with the new positions they have found.  but there aren't that many who have found work.  and again, i am not responsible for whether or not they do.  i know this.

i wonder if i had let j get caught with what he was doing would have made a difference sooner for those people.  i can't change the past.  but i can change those same choices i am faced with now with "b."  because b is now playing fast and loose with his contract terms and wanting me to change the software to write checks other than "as is."  he is in lawsuits with his partners and using my skills and knowledge to find an edge over those people, without me really knowing why he is asking the questions.  he bumbles and fumbles the questions so much i do not know if he is pulling a "matlock" or is really having difficulty in understanding.  and then, all of a sudden, i find out after the fact.  he asks questions in such a way as to get only the answer he wants.

i am getting paranoid in working in this place.  so... do i hold to my ideals or do i turn into a shark?  this is why i am looking for a middle ground.

i have already decided to leave where i am.  it is unhealthy there.  for me.  and, for once, i do not feel obligated by other people's needs to be saved to stay.

i just want to learn to stay out of the middle, in the future.  not to duck things that i am really responsible for- you know the saying- all it takes for "evil" to win is for good men to do nothing.  i don't want to do nothing.  but i think, in a lot of ways, i am making my life harder than it needs to be, somehow.

Those men are the reason the Gods gave us the ability to hex...

[Earthbound Spirit]

I am an accountant and i know what you mean about those salesmen.  Necessary evil of the business world.  You don't have to like them to do your job to the best of your abilities.  You can also find a different job if possible.  Non profits can be good jobs for ethical people.  I work in AR and deal with millions of dollars.  In my mind there is no difference in me stealing a dime or a million dollars from the company I work for.  I work with and for good people.  I do have to deal with some very rich folks from time to time and if i had to be like some of them act,  I would rather be poor.  I can look myself in the mirror and am proud of what I see.

We work in a service industry.  A lot of people don't like accounting types because our main job is to protect a companies assets so some people can take offense at our inquisitive nature.  I can honestly say the only person I really couldn't stand that I worked with was a salesperson.  They have a totally different mindset than us.  Acceptance is a big key to a happy life, imo.  Nothing you say or do will change their outlook on life or how they treat people.

[Earthbound Spirit]

the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.

My opinion on this one is to apply for a job within the IRS (you're a citizen of the US, right?). Then you can make a lifetime out of finding dishonest scum like these gentlemen and fining them/jailing them for their criminal behaviors.

The only problem with that is that the only friends you will have(irl) will work for the IRS too.  I was told that by a district director of the IRS in our area, that.  People who you thought were your friends, will abandon you.  You work for the IRS now, those thieving bastards.    Ain't too many people who pay taxes, really care for the IRS all that much.

Eta:  I met that guy while studying for the CPA exam.  He was one of the instructors.  I actually considered going to work for the IRS until I found that out.  Normal/regular folk avoid IRS agents like the plague.

[auntygreens]

*touches earthbound spirit gently in gratitude*

thank you.  thank you so very much.  to all of you, really.  i have been wracking my brain so hard these past three months.  wondering if there is something wrong with my thinking.  there is.  but not in the way i thought there was.  i have been back and forth so many, many times.

my sister tells me all the time- you don't have to play fair in your head.  as long as you act honorably, you don't have to be fair on the inside.  you can curse and scream and be as childish as you want.  because giving yourself room, inside, to react and to stomp your feet at something that hurts you, is healthy.  i keep forgetting that.

i need to learn to refocus.  focus on what is going on at home.  and not injest the bs.  focus on my sister, my pets, frogprince.  focus on the love and acceptance in my life.  not the people who get away with "murder" because there will always BE those people.  all i do is give them more power when i focus my attention on them.  that is how i turn hard and inflexible.

i have an interview on saturday with a couple who are trying to restructure their business.  and a placement firm is really, really interested in me, even tho i didn't accept the position with the irs-audited man.  they are very supportive and confident that they will be able to find me a better position than i have right now.

i am not who i used to be.  and i know that doesn't make sense to any of you.  i don't think writing the book of who i used to be would matter or be condusive to any one else's understanding.  i feel as though i am in the third incarnation of my life (in this life time, i mean, for those who believe in reincarnation).  just beginning again. i let go of the anarchy and went straight as an arrow in my early twenties.  now, i am letting go of the straight edges and evolving into something new.  so, maybe it wasn't that my faith broke.  not the way i viewed it four years ago or even six months ago.  i got rocked.  right down to my core/bedrock, and all of my own inner bs and demons needed to come out and dance for a while.  and maybe the point is to balance out myself, in the history and future of my self, and not the people who will use and break others for their own whims.  that is someone else's job for a while.  time to focus on healing my damage and the damage i have done.  not to relive it over and over.  but to really, finally heal it.

non-profits?  something to really think about.  thanks for the suggestion.  i have had a dream lately to start a casino/bingo hall, with the focus on donating a chunk of the profits to the ASPCA and other animal rights groups.  to take someone's addiction and turn it into something for the betterment of all, without judging the person with the addiction.  jst a thought, because the chance of it happening is very slim.  but i like the idea of it more and more.