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Author Topic: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry  (Read 3515 times)

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lucifer

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2012, 05:08:36 PM »

the three places i have called say that it is nothing personal.  i am over qualified.  not have the right skill set or that the position was removed during the interview process of the company.
-Overqualified = worth more than they can afford to pay (If you really need the job and the issue of pay comes up in the interview, you might want to let them know that you need the income and would work for whatever [reasonable wage] that they could afford to pay [without sounding desperate]? )

-not have the right skill set = you may be educated and work well, but you lack the experience in the specific field that we're hiring for (insist that you're a quick learner and that the type of work is well within your parameters of your learning [in the interview - not over the phone])

-position was removed = ?? (I have no idea what that's supposed to mean? They found someone else that was more qualified, maybe?)

And I know that you're not a shark! What I was saying is that companies sometimes seek to hire shark managers to get rid of the dead weight and run a tight and efficient ship. If the hiring manager wants to be a niceguy, but still wants an efficiently ran company, they might want to have a shark as an assistant manager. This is one place where I wouldn't personally negotiate how I feel either (I'm not saying you should become a shark, I'm saying that sometimes it's what companies look for).
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auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 05:17:47 PM »

there have been at least 6 positions that i have applied or interviewed for that the company has decided to go in a different direction.  outsourcing and turning the position more clerical.  where a bookkeeper would expect between 18-20 an hour, a clerk that can code AP would expect to be paid 10-12 an hour.

this is part of why i am questioning my ethics.  i have already turned down three bookkeeping positions from people that are scum, like the twice audited by the irs guy.

i have a company started, in case i can find clients.  but again, i am not really all that capable of selling my services.  i don't mind being self-employed.  i have a website for it, GL insurance, the ability to run a back office virtually.  i could manage several construction businesses at the same time.  but most single construction owners aren't interested.
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2012, 05:28:35 PM »

i have been thinking about your question.

and i know you weren't calling me a shark.  my mother used to say that i was too forthright, too honest, too upfront.

so i have really tried to be more tactful.  it is foreign to me.  i loved construction partially because i work better with men than women.  they also have wicked senses of humor, usually, and wouldn't have an issue with my no bs mentality to work.  i am not one to chit-chat, gossip, or do the girlygirl thing.  when i am at work, i work. 
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

lucifer

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2012, 05:45:51 PM »

i have a company started, in case i can find clients.  but again, i am not really all that capable of selling my services.  i don't mind being self-employed.  i have a website for it, GL insurance, the ability to run a back office virtually.  i could manage several construction businesses at the same time.  but most single construction owners aren't interested.
Find a seller or advertiser who will work to promote your business for cheap (or for a preset percentage of brought in real clients?). Trust that if a seller is willing to work for you based on commission that they are pretty sure of their skills (and if they're unsucessful, they don't get paid :-p).
so i have really tried to be more tactful.  it is foreign to me.  i loved construction partially because i work better with men than women.  they also have wicked senses of humor, usually, and wouldn't have an issue with my no bs mentality to work.  i am not one to chit-chat, gossip, or do the girlygirl thing.  when i am at work, i work.
I personally work better with women than with men because I find them easier to talk to (for me), but the rest of your assertions I agree with - work is a place to work, not a place to make friends.

I was thinking about alternative ways to make money... Did you ever consider moving in with your sister and renting out the other half of the duplex? It might be a last resort, but if you're a good business mind, you could easily turn a profit renting out a good-sized duplex for a fair price. If you and your sister are capable of sharing one of the three-bedroom parts and renting out the other, it's something to think about.

and I've heard before that no landlord ever wants to live next-door to a tenant, but look at Three's Company!
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oldghost

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2012, 06:17:44 PM »

Okat Lucy , let me enilghting you ; havinr owned a few businesses in my time , unless a bookkeeper has invested in the company they are in no way management period ; just another employee.
 
When management hires some one it is on there head and what that person comes across as . It ain't TV pretain only count to perves , brain are what they are looking for , prety is nice but brains make you money.
 
Tell you what slick after you have owned your own business and worked 80 + hours a week then you'll have the right to open your
 trap.
 
Ag , if you are not sell yourself , then you must change you tactics .Relay on no one else , unless they will do it for nothing .
 
Also lucy's a twit .
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lucifer

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2012, 06:41:18 PM »

I'm sorry :(
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 06:55:49 PM by lucifer »
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The day people stop learning is the day they die. Life is one big classroom , from cradle to grave , a place learning is forever , some learn quickly some remain in the same class their entire life.

auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2012, 07:02:12 PM »

thanks, both of you.

and lucifer, you are helping.  even if you are reinforcing ideas that i have.  any ideas are helpful.  i might be able to find a new way of looking at things, that suits both my ethics and practical needs.

one of the things i had to learn was that being truthful does not always mean speaking the mos plain, unvarnished truth.  i do not have to VOLUNTEER that information, either.  that was a habit i developed from my mother's nervousness.  and not being that unvarnished truth doesn't mean that i am lying, obscuring, or messing with someone else's point of view.

i also had to learn that being supportive doesn't always mean being a doormat.

i don't judge, cheat, play games.  i try to put my money where my mouth is and live as cleanly as possible.  i have given up the anarchy and violence in my life.  i care about other people and try to put their needs before my own.  i can fight the good fight without being the aggressive, in-your-face person i was.  my faith, my beliefs, and my calling are all separate and my life gets better when even two of the three come together.  i live by what fits well in my life, not by pre-designated terms.

so any help is good.  it helps me re-evaluate.  its all good.
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2012, 05:03:56 PM »

well, i had an interview today.

and one of the strangest to date.  it is in my pay range that i am looking for.  it is in the town where i live.  which i was expecting to get the pay range in a city about 30 miles away.

the guy had some off-putting ways throughout the entire conversation.  and yet, i had a second interview scheduled by the time i left.

the person i would be working for sounds... not mentally healthy environment.  severe micromanaging.  100% perfection rate expectation.  hourly deadlines.  in a quiet, unnassuming workplace where most of my tasks would be well defined and i would not be in charge of anyone else but myself.  which, after being in management and on call for nearly 20 years, appeals to me.

he would ask me if i had any questions. i would answer.  he didn't realize i was answering and give me another dissertation on his company. my questions were about the position.  and then he would sit back after his yet another dissertation and ask me what my questions were.  i had to almost forcibly state: my questions are about the position- is my understanding of what you are looking for correct?

so... odd. 

and he wants to have better customer service that the big boys in his industry by having his clients not call in and enter their data themselves into the system online.  so... how is that better customer service?

i did pay close attention to my own responses.  i think my active listening skills are part of why i blow interviews.  i think i am coming across as more serious and stern than i actually am, when i am trying to be patient with my interviewer, because most interviewers i have met talk excessively.

so anyone got any ideas?  I am normally a quiet person, so "chatting" is not a "be yourself" trait for me.
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

lucifer

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2012, 07:47:04 PM »

and he wants to have better customer service that the big boys in his industry by having his clients not call in and enter their data themselves into the system online.  so... how is that better customer service?
Do you mean that he wants to have his clients using automated forms online? That's horrible customer service, in my opinion. I'm personally perfectly fine reading and filling out online forms, but a lot of people still don't like the impersonal feeling of telling a computer what your needs and issues are... Bad customer service.

Quote
i did pay close attention to my own responses.  i think my active listening skills are part of why i blow interviews.  i think i am coming across as more serious and stern than i actually am, when i am trying to be patient with my interviewer, because most interviewers i have met talk excessively.
I don't know... I personally dislike people who ramble about stuff that's not relevent to the work. IMO, it's polite to NOT waste the company's time by chatting while you're supposed to be working and this supercedes anyone else's needs to talk or be friendly (unless that someone else is a customer and your job is customer service, but even that has limits).

Quote
so anyone got any ideas?  I am normally a quiet person, so "chatting" is not a "be yourself" trait for me.
Ditto... What did you want ideas about? (I don't understand what that last question was in reference to)
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The day people stop learning is the day they die. Life is one big classroom , from cradle to grave , a place learning is forever , some learn quickly some remain in the same class their entire life.

auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »

sorry i have not gotten back to this.  my adopted sister has finally fallen into semi-coma.  which is a blessing  (lung cancer that has gone to her liver, bones, and brain.)

after a lot of thinking and discussion with frogprince, i think i am understanding where i am going wrong.  to some extent. 

i am not "engaging" during an interview.  i am active listening and being patient.  as, i think i wrote above.  interviewers are not looking for the tasks and traits they want in an employee.  they are looking for interest, common ground/ideals, and who the person is that they are hiring.  not the skills the person has or how suitable the person is for the job.

i am not good at chit chat or small talk.  give me a problem to solve, i am good.  give me a weeping/distraught person, i am good.  give me something to DO, i am good. 

i have read so many article that give the interview advice regarding - be yourself, be transparent.  but don't be negative.  don't try to prove that you are the best candidate for the job.  show self-confidence.

so- i am looking to be more hmm.... "professionally polite and give conversation with a goal of getting the job but not revealing my personal life." kind of way.  i don't feel that my personal life should mix professionally, except with regard to my behavior and actions.  some personal discourse is important.  but i do not like to open myself up at work, as i have been denied advancement in the past.  mostly because i don't "know responsibility" because i do not have children.  apparently, taking care of my mother and my sister and frogprince all these years and the fact that i have lost 8 children doesn't count.  (can you taste the bitterness?)

i have also had people discover that i am pagan and deliberately find fault with my work so as to get a write up and therefore screw my 360 reviews for advancement. 

i live an alternate lifestyle.  that is my choice.  i have no need to cram it down someone else's throat.  but i do not like their christianity crammed down mine, either.

i have learned to steer clear of any position where, right in the interview, the reviewer says- well, we all go to church together.  outside of work, of course.  with the implication that i should do the same, if i want to get along.

i think the active listening is good at helping me steer clear of the irs-audited guys and the church-compliance people. 

so- any suggestions that anyone has on how to be more engaging would be helpful.  thanks in advance.
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »

well...

i asked for clarity and boy, have i gotten it.

i had the best non-interview interview today.  the woman i met with completely took apart my resume and explained to me why i am not getting call backs and why i have sucked so badly at interviews.  she was so helpful and nice. 

i take my creative side out when i am looking for a job.  my resume stands out only because it is overwhelming and looks like it has been hit with confetti, from all the bullets.

she gave me homework to do, to re-write my resume.  and this woman worked with the DOL for 14 years, helping to write and ghost-write resumes.

so, i pass this on to you all:

* only use 10 years of experience/job history
* don't hide the skills that would attract an employer to you at the bottom or listing in a job description.  use a short bulleted list under your education
* use graphics to break up your resume and draw attention to the more important aspects.  simple, clean lines, bolded text in some places, and movement-causing subtle bullets.
* Bold and oversize your name at the top, with your contact information smaller.  when people sort through resumes, you want your name to be eye-catching, but not garish.
* do not use more than 10 bullets for each job that you put down.  use descriptions in half sentences that contain action words, to create curiosity and movement.
* only put the things you are proud of doing on your resume/job descriptions, not a skill set based on the amount of time that you spent doing those tasks.  (that comes half from me and half from the woman who helped me today)
* put the mm/yy start and end points of a position at the END of the line. otherwise, people try to calculate instead of read.


basically, because i used general descriptions, there was too much room for interpretation.  and because i had over 30 bullets in one job, i was telling all about me.  so the person would make up their minds before meeting me and putting me up against someone that they actually spoke with.

i figured out after leaving the interview that my resume is also a conversation stopper, not starter.  there was so much general detail, it leaves people with nothing to talk to me about, even if i do get called for an interview.  i had nothing to say, nothing to point out- hey i can do this, that i come across as aloof and non-engaging.  the resume acts as a deterrent because it is too blunt. 

so, now i have  separate resumes, based on skill set, and i am about to make out a third.
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

Draconis Rex

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2012, 07:20:38 PM »

Hi Aunty,
What I do is I keep a general purpose CV on my puter, and depending on the job I'm going for I make adjustments so the CV is geared for the post I'm after. I always keep the original AS IS so it's always there. The points you illustrated above are very similar to the formats we use here. For one particular job I have had, I would have so many bullets it would probably take up three pages alone.  :o  But, as I say I can add to it or subtract as I need to.

I wish you well on your continued search, and may the Goddess help you find the right one.
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auntygreens

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2012, 07:44:55 PM »

thank you.

i am seeking a healthy change in my life.  there is a lot tied up in this thread that i haven't touched on.  but mostly, it revolves around not being angry anymore.  being a bit__ to be a bit__, i lose myself in there, even if i am "right."  i don't have to give up my edges or my flaws.  but i can give up needing to be so aggressive. 

sighs.

i can't tell any of you how much i have needed this.  or how deep my appreciation for this place is right now.  i do not feel so.... despondent.  or adrift and second guessing all my choices.  and i haven't felt this way for nearly 20 years.  i am learning to be at peace, even when there is all this negativity around me.  i had it in the most abusive and violent time of my life, that inner grace.  when i stepped away from that tumultuous lifestyle is when the doubt crept in.  ah, there is a lot in that that i don't think i should talk about.  not now.

i realized, between yesterday and today, that i have helped to recreate this job into the one i left, when mom was sick.  and now i know how to not do that again.

some of that is from the advice of changing where i am looking for work.  and some of that is realizing that i do not have to be everything for my employer.  i can live up to my ethics without selling myself short and leaving myself wide open for my employer to exploit. doing that in the past gave me a lot of experience, education, and knowledge.  now, i need to apply those things to get what i need to be content and balanced between work, home, faith, and family. it isn't selling myself out or not putting my money where my mouth is.  its putting myself into healthier situations.

so, yeah- keep those insights coming.  they are helping.  hugs to all...
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To give love, one must acknowledge, accept, validate, and share. But most important of all of these is to reassure, as it removes doubt, fear, and hurts well beyond any other Healing in this World.

Draconis Rex

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2012, 02:34:49 PM »

We're all here for you AuntyGreens, anything you need.  ;)
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oldghost

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Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2012, 08:04:06 PM »

We're all here for you AuntyGreens, anything you need.  ;)
             Second that AG . TCC rescue squad on alert and standing by , call us when needed .
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