If I had a penny for every time I had been condemned to eternal hell fire and damnation by someone purporting to espouse a faith of love and peace......
And said with such relish. I've been told : "How we'll laugh as we watch you burn."
Unfortunately SE, This
is the sort of closed mindedness I refer to. It's such a shame that in Christian society extremes are the norm. Whereas the Pagan attitude is to accept others whatever their belief. In those terms that would make us more Christian than them...LoL
And on the magick they fear:
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with will."
This is another issue I wanted to bring up at a later date, I think I may bring it up sooner than planned in another topic.
You have to ask yourself one question who saw Moses bring a plague on Egypt who saw Jesus walk on water , the answer is simple those that wrote the stories . Where is the proof
Ah OG, This is an age old issue that has plagued (pun not intended
) society for aeon's. Translations of the biblical books has always carried doubts as to the validity of what was being transposed. A prime example for instance is the quote "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", where witch has actually been proven to mean "poisoner". However the text given is still, in its way, taken in an almost literal condemnation. Thusly I would be inclined to agree with you in that, what has been said about past miracles has to be questioned as to the validity, or rather accuracy of the event.
Think on it like this , if you prayed to some deity for what you wanted and where granted it what could you do for yourself , nothing some deity would do it for you eg you never grow never learn never advance. Magic is what you have worked for and done yourself. You can be guided but only you can choose and make happen , your effort not someone else
Again the question is raised about accuracy. We all here know that we have the power in ourselves to make things happen, but our Pagan belief is more the realisation that we make these things happen through our own efforts and do not apport the event to another. Could this not have been the case in those times? Perhaps what we are looking at is the act of protecting ones self from punishment from authority of those times? If what I do is said to be an act of God then I cannot be held to account for practising eldritch practices. And thusly God is the bringer of all "miracles".
Good and evil are in use not some god or devil and just to let you know Witches and Wiccans as well as Pagan do not believe in a devil . You see that is the christian way of controlling people.
Of this I am aware although I must admit, as an ex-Christian it took me a long, long time to get past this, and overcome my "fear" of "Satan jumping up and biting me in the A***.
i think that it is both.
i think that the tenants of Christianity are good, healthy choices. are they miracles? i think that is in the eye of the person who is witnessing the event.
a mother who is a tiny person who can lift a car to save her child? yes, it may be biological, but i do also find that to be a miracle. and where did the energy come from? from within? from without? from fate, from diety? i think it is a blending of all of these things.
I would agree with you here AG, although I would say 'perceiving' the event would be more apt. I say this because not all miracles are witnessed events. We hear of statues having tears of blood, or an image of Christ appearing in something.
The mother lifting a car? This example has indeed happened in various scenarios, and it is indeed a miraculous event. Science has proven this to be a biological reaction to a perceived danger, and others have spoken of the power of God infusing that women with the power to react. This is not a magickal event but is certainly miraculous. I think there is in this case a difference between miracle and miraculous. To me that power definately came from within.
I do not think it is right to put more than a guideline on the definition of the end result of prayer, ritual, event or guided meditation. It limits the scope of that end result and alters it from taking full effect. Especially labeled as the voice or action of God(s). If the person who is the catalyst for that action, then it is the combination of their Will and their spiritual environment. IF their source of "power" is God, good. If it is from the universe through quadrants, that is also good. i have seen both. i have asked for both. and they have each come, together and separate.
An interesting point that bears pondering. It may be that being an ex-christian myself, I may still have some little doubts creeping in on me occasionally. Thanx.
ag i can't say this as well as you did but here goes. When we want something so badly we focus
with intense intent we create the magic with change. From negative to positive, or the opposite.
The change is the magic that makes the miracle. I always amazed at our ability to create magic.
It comes natural when we are children, if we don't know we can hold on to the magic we lose the
ability. It's harder to learn as we grow older, but by no means impossible.
This may make no sense to some, but has taken a long time simply to learn this and there is much more to learn and be amazed at
This makes complete sense to me. To those not familiar with the craft, it would be a subconscious thing that, with enough desire behind it, can go towards exerting the power within. The doubt is kind of blocked out in some cases by the sheer force of desire/want/need, that the untrained are unaware of the fact that they have performed this event. Whereas, the trained practitioner, aware of the hangups, must consciously remove all doubt from the ritual or spellcast in order to make things happen.
this is something that has been on my mind of late too.
You're welcome Theyd...LoL