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Author Topic: Magick Vs Miracle  (Read 3067 times)

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Draconis Rex

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Magick Vs Miracle
« on: September 03, 2012, 06:04:13 PM »

Hope I'm not repeating an older topic here, I don't remember seeing it anywhere. Just surprised its not been raised before.

Please note; if this topic can be viewed as offensive in any way, this was not my intention and I will understand if it is removed.  ;)

This is a question that came to me a long time ago, and I never really followed it through much. However, recently during my reading I came across something that reawakened this question for me. I therefore did some searching for more info on the subject and I have got to say there are a lot of negative opinions about our pagan side of this particular coin. I did notice that the majority of what I was reading was from a Christian point of view basically saying that the difference between Magick and Miracle was that, Miracles come from God and Magick comes from the devil.... Good Grief!  :-p

Now don't take me wrong here about Christians, I'm not down on them; but there are a lot of closed minds out there. I once was a Christian many years ago.

The way I see it, there was a lot of Magick performed during Biblical times, both in the old and the new testament. Moses for instance brought forth plagues in order to convince Pharaoh to free his people. Magick or Miracle? Jesus walked on water, told the fishermen where to cast their nets, changed water into wine, and even healed the sick; Magick or Miracle? And there are many other examples of strange occurrences going on that were accepted readily as Miracles of God.

To some it would probably be a matter of perspective, good Vs evil, God Vs Devil. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this, especially from the Christian members of our forum as I know they are more open minded and would be able to give a more informed and enlightened opinion than the average Christian.
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Scorched Eartha

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 06:28:40 PM »

If I had a penny for every time I had been condemned to eternal hell fire and damnation by someone purporting to espouse a faith of love and peace......

And said with such relish. I've been told : "How we'll laugh as we watch you burn."

So yeah you know - I've no issue with what anyone believes or how anyone chooses to live. But when they get down in the spiritual sewers like that, all etiquette type bets are off AFAIC.

I'm with Crowley on this one: Both on that type of Christian:

"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one's neighbor and this fact goes far to account for religious intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the people next door are headed for hell."

And on the magick they fear:

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with will."

Not my fault it is that they lack the requisite will - and thus feel the need to outsource the task and call it a Miracle?



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oldghost

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 06:45:40 PM »

You have to ask yourself one question who saw Moses bring a plague on Egypt who saw Jesus walk on water , the answer is simple those that wrote the stories . Where is the proof ?.Think on it like this , if you prayed to some deity for what you wanted and where granted it what could you do for yourself , nothing some deity would do it for you eg you never grow never learn never advance. Magic is what you have worked for and done yourself. You can be guided but only you can choose and make happen , your effort not someone else
 
Good and evil are in use not some god or devil and just to let you know Witches and Wiccans as well as Pagan do not believe in a devil . You see that is the christian way of controlling people.
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auntygreens

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 08:32:12 PM »

i think that it is both.

i think that the tenants of Christianity are good, healthy choices.  are they miracles?   i think that is in the eye of the person who is witnessing the event.

a mother who is a tiny person who can lift a car to save her child?  yes, it may be biological, but i do also find that to be a miracle.  and where did the energy come from?  from within?  from without?  from fate, from diety?  i think it is a blending of all of these things.

i do NOT enjoy people who say that what we see as searching the heart as the voice of God.  Each person, Christian, Pagan, Jewish, Muslim, has their own interpretation on God(s) or higher power.  I do not think it is right to put more than a guideline on the definition of the end result of prayer, ritual, event or guided meditation.  It limits the scope of that end result and alters it from taking full effect.  Especially labeled as the voice or action of God(s).  If the person who is the catalyst for that action, then it is the combination of their Will and their spiritual environment.  IF their source of "power" is God, good.  If it is from the universe through quadrants, that is also good.  i have seen both.  i have asked for both.  and they have each come, together and separate.

but then again, i think it is a miracle we humans have not nuked ourselves and this entire planet into smithereens, too.  we do such awful things to one another in the name of Being Right.

how is miracle defined, if it can be stated any other way than the Voice/Action of God?  (that is not a rhetorical generalization, but an honest question.)
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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 08:58:49 PM »

ag i can't say this as well as you did but here goes. When we want something so badly we focus
with intense intent we create the magic with change. From negative to positive, or the opposite.
The change is the magic that makes the miracle. I always amazed at our ability to create magic.
It comes natural when we are children, if we don't know we can hold on to the magic we lose the
ability. It's harder to learn as we grow older, but by no means impossible.

This may make no sense to some, but has taken a long time simply to learn this and there is much more to learn and be amazed at
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oldghost

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 10:22:39 PM »

ag i can't say this as well as you did but here goes. When we want something so badly we focus
with intense intent we create the magic with change. From negative to positive, or the opposite.
The change is the magic that makes the miracle. I always amazed at our ability to create magic.
It comes natural when we are children, if we don't know we can hold on to the magic we lose the
ability. It's harder to learn as we grow older, but by no means impossible.

This may make no sense to some, but has taken a long time simply to learn this and there is much more to learn and be amazed at
How magical is that coming from a magic LADY herself . Thank you Marisol , Love you H . J.
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Aunt Thora

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 04:10:00 AM »

this is something that has been on my mind of late too.  And in my little world this is what i have come up with. (take it for what ever it is worth)   magick/miracle are one of the same.

Many year ago when I was studying the bible   I was told to understand math and science and then I would have a better understanding of the world and miracle's.

I do know that the human mind, body and soul can be a very powerful. 
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 07:22:11 AM »

If I had a penny for every time I had been condemned to eternal hell fire and damnation by someone purporting to espouse a faith of love and peace......

And said with such relish. I've been told : "How we'll laugh as we watch you burn."

Unfortunately SE, This is the sort of closed mindedness I refer to. It's such a shame that in Christian society extremes are the norm. Whereas the Pagan attitude is to accept others whatever their belief. In those terms that would make us more Christian than them...LoL  ;D

And on the magick they fear:

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with will."

This is another issue I wanted to bring up at a later date, I think I may bring it up sooner than planned in another topic.  :-p

You have to ask yourself one question who saw Moses bring a plague on Egypt who saw Jesus walk on water , the answer is simple those that wrote the stories . Where is the proof

Ah OG, This is an age old issue that has plagued (pun not intended  :-p) society for aeon's. Translations of the biblical books has always carried doubts as to the validity of what was being transposed. A prime example for instance is the quote "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", where witch has actually been proven to mean "poisoner". However the text given is still, in its way, taken in an almost literal condemnation. Thusly I would be inclined to agree with you in that, what has been said about past miracles has to be questioned as to the validity, or rather accuracy of the event.

Think on it like this , if you prayed to some deity for what you wanted and where granted it what could you do for yourself , nothing some deity would do it for you eg you never grow never learn never advance. Magic is what you have worked for and done yourself. You can be guided but only you can choose and make happen , your effort not someone else

Again the question is raised about accuracy. We all here know that we have the power in ourselves to make things happen, but our Pagan belief is more the realisation that we make these things happen through our own efforts and do not apport the event to another. Could this not have been the case in those times? Perhaps what we are looking at is the act of protecting ones self from punishment from authority of those times? If what I do is said to be an act of God then I cannot be held to account for practising eldritch practices. And thusly God is the bringer of all "miracles".

Good and evil are in use not some god or devil and just to let you know Witches and Wiccans as well as Pagan do not believe in a devil . You see that is the christian way of controlling people.

Of this I am aware although I must admit, as an ex-Christian it took me a long, long time to get past this, and overcome my "fear" of "Satan jumping up and biting me in the A***.  ;D

i think that it is both.

i think that the tenants of Christianity are good, healthy choices.  are they miracles?   i think that is in the eye of the person who is witnessing the event.

a mother who is a tiny person who can lift a car to save her child?  yes, it may be biological, but i do also find that to be a miracle.  and where did the energy come from?  from within?  from without?  from fate, from diety?  i think it is a blending of all of these things.


I would agree with you here AG, although I would say 'perceiving' the event would be more apt. I say this because not all miracles are witnessed events. We hear of statues having tears of blood, or an image of Christ appearing in something.

The mother lifting a car? This example has indeed happened in various scenarios, and it is indeed a miraculous event. Science has proven this to be a biological reaction to a perceived danger, and others have spoken of the power of God infusing that women with the power to react. This is not a magickal event but is certainly miraculous. I think there is in this case a difference between miracle and miraculous. To me that power definately came from within.

I do not think it is right to put more than a guideline on the definition of the end result of prayer, ritual, event or guided meditation.  It limits the scope of that end result and alters it from taking full effect.  Especially labeled as the voice or action of God(s).  If the person who is the catalyst for that action, then it is the combination of their Will and their spiritual environment.  IF their source of "power" is God, good.  If it is from the universe through quadrants, that is also good.  i have seen both.  i have asked for both.  and they have each come, together and separate.

An interesting point that bears pondering. It may be that being an ex-christian myself, I may still have some little doubts creeping in on me occasionally. Thanx.  ;)

ag i can't say this as well as you did but here goes. When we want something so badly we focus
with intense intent we create the magic with change. From negative to positive, or the opposite.
The change is the magic that makes the miracle. I always amazed at our ability to create magic.
It comes natural when we are children, if we don't know we can hold on to the magic we lose the
ability. It's harder to learn as we grow older, but by no means impossible.

This may make no sense to some, but has taken a long time simply to learn this and there is much more to learn and be amazed at

This makes complete sense to me. To those not familiar with the craft, it would be a subconscious thing that, with enough desire behind it, can go towards exerting the power within. The doubt is kind of blocked out in some cases by the sheer force of desire/want/need, that the untrained are unaware of the fact that they have performed this event. Whereas, the trained practitioner, aware of the hangups, must consciously remove all doubt from the ritual or spellcast in order to make things happen.

this is something that has been on my mind of late too.

You're welcome Theyd...LoL  ;D
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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 08:48:52 AM »

The Devil (Ahriman) is actually Pagan in origin:
During their time of exile in Babylon (which later became Persia, which even later became Iran) the Jewish (I'm pretty sure that this term is categorically incorrect, but that's what the modern descendants call themselves) people encountered a belief system called Zoroastrianism (the following link is a list of various Persian dieties): http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=7472.msg163596#msg163596 - Prior to this time of exile, the Jewish people had no concept of a ``bad'' spirit - they believed only in one God who was the essence and creator of all things good and bad.

Although, those of us in modern times who follow neo-Pagan or eclectic-Pagan paths do tend not to believe in any supernatural essence that creates and propogates all things and ideas which are evil and bad. The original concept of ``The Devil'' (Ahriman) did come from our ancient spiritual ancestors (to some extent, it could be said that Christianity is a modern descendant of ancient Paganism for this same reason)

::edit::
At the OP, I have no opinion on Magick (humanly willed) vs. Miracle (Godly willed)... I personally think that no all-powerful God should let his creations do something which he sees as wrong. Failing to prevent such acts from occuring would be on the part of the all-powerful God and shouldn't be attributed to some lesser evil force or to the humans who are the ones actually performing the actions.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:28:34 AM by lucifer »
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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 10:36:55 AM »

Wiccans believe in the God and Goddess. Not an all powerful God or the devil. What Christians
believe does not bother me. But it also does not concern me. What concerns me is balance in all
things which the God and Goddess provide. You can quote religous texts all you want, but I'm
not here for that. I think that I know who you are now. Don't confuse the newbs with your facts
about non-existent deities. You do your research I give you that. But it's about useless info.
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lucifer

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 10:41:19 AM »

You can quote religous texts all you want, but I'm
not here for that. I think that I know who you are now. Don't confuse the newbs with your facts
about non-existent deities. You do your research I give you that. But it's about useless info.
I think that it's at least worth mentioning that modern Christians and modern Pagans are essentially role-reversed from what the ancient versions of ourselves believed... Ancient pagans evolved into modern Christians and Ancient Christians (how ancient is 2000 years? Not very, but it's still the term I'm going to use) have evolved into modern neo-Pagans.

Useless, maybe... but interesting to take note of. Think about it this way - what will we believe 2000 years from now? What will the Wiccans of the future believe?

::edit::
and I agree that there is and should be balance in all things within The Goddess and The God. If you ask for something bad, know that it might happen, but that if it does happen, then the bad at some point will find it's way back to you (Karma FTW)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 10:43:32 AM by lucifer »
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2012, 11:01:01 AM »

The Devil (Ahriman) is actually Pagan in origin:
During their time of exile in Babylon (which later became Persia, which even later became Iran) the Jewish (I'm pretty sure that this term is categorically incorrect, but that's what the modern descendants call themselves) people encountered a belief system called Zoroastrianism (the following link is a list of various Persian dieties): http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=7472.msg163596#msg163596 - Prior to this time of exile, the Jewish people had no concept of a ``bad'' spirit - they believed only in one God who was the essence and creator of all things good and bad.

Although, those of us in modern times who follow neo-Pagan or eclectic-Pagan paths do tend not to believe in any supernatural essence that creates and propogates all things and ideas which are evil and bad. The original concept of ``The Devil'' (Ahriman) did come from our ancient spiritual ancestors (to some extent, it could be said that Christianity is a modern descendant of ancient Paganism for this same reason)

Ok Luc, I accept your premise of a Devil type entity that was in origin, pagan. But for me to give a more informed opinion on that score I would have to look into it more fully. My only awareness of such was from the Christian aspect. Perhaps when I bone up on that a bit more I can get back to you.  :)

I must say tho, with reference to the second part of your post, I am of the opinion that there is no spirit or entity that puts thoughts or ideas into our heads, we are more than capable of doing that for ourselves. In fact, the diverse ability of man to come up with new and more and more despicable ways to treat their fellow human has rendered any form of devil in whatsoever incarnation to be totally redundant.
I will agree with you about Christianity being a descendant of ancient Paganism. Paganism paralleled the ancient Essenes after all, in both their beliefs and their ways of conducting themselves. So despite what Christians may think of us, we are more alike than they would like to be or even realise....LoL   :D

::edit::
At the OP, I have no opinion on Magick (humanly willed) vs. Miracle (Godly willed)... I personally think that no all-powerful God should let his creations do something which he sees as wrong. Failing to prevent such acts from occurring would be on the part of the all-powerful God and shouldn't be attributed to some lesser evil force or to the humans who are the ones actually performing the actions.

I would query you on this last part of your post, If you think that God should prevent his subjects from doing wrong, would that not mean that the creations of God are then being denied their freedom of will, and freedom to be? This kind of reinforces my previous responce denying the possibility of any entity putting thoughts in our heads albeit good or evil.

Human nature has become so embroiled in its own superiority and self affirmation, with of course the respect due to a higher being, that anything that goes wrong is so easily attributable to an evil presence. ("the devil made me do it" for example. :-p)
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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 11:22:52 AM »

I would query you on this last part of your post, If you think that God should prevent his subjects from doing wrong, would that not mean that the creations of God are then being denied their freedom of will, and freedom to be? This kind of reinforces my previous responce denying the possibility of any entity putting thoughts in our heads albeit good or evil.
That would be exactly what it would do... rob humans of the will to choose to follow what they believe is ``right'' or to reject that and follow what is ``wrong'' (for the purpose of being clear, not every culture has the same views of right and wrong [i.e. some island cultures in the world today still practice cannibalism]).

The way I've heard it before is that the argument for an all-powerful god who would let bad things happen is that: taking away people's ability to do bad would also rob them from the ability to do good (or feel love, compasion, etc... a number of things which make us uniquely human).

And I'm very much not a Christian (or a fundamentalist Christian, as it were), so please don't feel like I answered your question for you from the other side...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:15:01 PM by lucifer »
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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 12:56:24 PM »

Quote
Prior to this time of exile, the Jewish people had no concept of a ``bad'' spirit - they believed only in one God who was the essence and creator of all things good and bad.

And in Judaism, that never changed.  Jews still believe in one G-d, who is the essence and creator of all things, both good and evil.  This is because true righteousness is dependent on resisting temptation.  The choice must always be available;
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 01:15:33 PM »

Well, when its all boiled down and turned out, it's all a matter of perspective. to a great degree influenced by our environs and cultural diversity. As you say Luc, Cannibals still believe they are right in their practices.

The way I've heard it before is that the argument for an all-powerful god who would let bad things happen is that: taking away people's ability to do bad would also rob them from the ability to do good (or feel love, compasion, etc... a number of things which make us uniquely human).

And I'm very much not a Christian (or a fundamentalist Christian, as it were), so please don't feel like I answered your question for you from the other side...

I refer to an earlier mention of balance here; as you say about taking away ones ability to do bad depriving them of the ability to do good, Without bad there could be no good. You need one to offset the other, and vice versa.

And BTW, Answer from any side you feel is appropriate to the post...LoL  :-p

The OP? Again its all a matter of personal perspective, I know what I hold to be true, and was interested in other peoples opinions. However, I have been given some food for thought on a couple of things, which is always good, it makes one think.
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