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Author Topic: Magick Vs Miracle  (Read 3297 times)

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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »

Pagans did not evolve into Christians of their own free will. They were forced. Pagans were lured
by the changing of holidays, staying alive,etc. Pagans have always been around, they simply
hid their true beliefs so as not to be branded as heretics.

Luci what will pagans be in 2000 yrs? There will always be pagans, tho they seem to disappear
they will still be there.
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 02:24:55 PM »

Pagans did not evolve into Christians of their own free will. They were forced. Pagans were lured
by the changing of holidays, staying alive,etc. Pagans have always been around, they simply
hid their true beliefs so as not to be branded as heretics.

Now that I see this Marisol, I see the truth of it. It seems the more I learn here the more I realise I don't know. I have a verrrrrrry long way to go ....LoL :-p
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lucifer

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2012, 03:36:42 PM »

Pagans did not evolve into Christians of their own free will. They were forced. Pagans were lured
by the changing of holidays, staying alive,etc. Pagans have always been around, they simply
hid their true beliefs so as not to be branded as heretics.
That's not really what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that Christianity is a belief system which was inspired largely by a Pagan belief system (Zoroastrianism [i.e. God vs. Satan]), and as such it can be viewed as a descendant of Paganism.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 05:04:52 PM »

I would think it was more of a descendant of Jewdism but I've been wrong alot.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:42:37 PM by Earthbound Spirit »
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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 05:23:33 PM »

Luci you asked what would Pagans be in 2000 yrs. I answered.
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lucifer

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2012, 08:17:50 PM »

I would think it was more of a descendant of Jewdism but I've been wrong alot.
God (Ormazd) and Satan (Ahriman) fighting for control over the Earth and it's inhabitants - a war between two divine entities (actually, in Zoroastrianism, God and Satan were twin brothers, which would make more sense than one being the creator of the other...) which puts us right in the middle. Jesus was Jewish (Essene) and so the Bible is built on the old testament (which was a Jewish history) and the new testament (which was the birth and life of Jesus + some prophecy of the future stuff) but the concept base for modern Christianity as it is most commonly practiced has Zoroastrianism to thank for the introducing ``The Devil'' and the divine fight.

Luci you asked what would Pagans be in 2000 yrs. I answered.
I actually asked where Wiccans would be because Wicca has a specific practice. It was meant as a kind of reinforcer that the intentions and practice of a religion can (and likely will) become completely different over the course of a couple thousand years... unless that religion has very strict membership requirements (i.e. Judaism).
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Serpentium

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2012, 08:19:27 PM »


Christianity is just another one  in a long line of Resurrected Sun King Cults. From the Orphic Mysteries, and the rebirth of Osiris as Horus, or the Persian Mithras, Chaldean's Bel, Adonis of the Phoenicians or the Greek Apollo.


There as so many common themes, it's almost like a trope, or formula. Central to all of them, is the Solar Trinity. A Holy Trinity, or triune Godhead is not particular to Christianity. Far from it. The Persians, Greeks, Phoenicians, Hindus, Babylonians, Romans, Egyptians, and Norse all had their Trinities too. In every instance, it represented a threefold aspect of the Godhead.


For the Egyptians, the Sun manifested as a Trinity. It had it's diurnal day and night cycle, and it's annual procession through the the year, visiting 12 houses, each of 30 days. These are it's calender aspects.


But also, there's another pattern here, called "The procession of the equinoxes". In this, the Sun retrogrades through the zodiac, at the rate of one degree, every 72 years.


So basically, the Sun is said to allegorically conquer each of the signs as it passes through them. In Taurus, the Sun became a Bull, and was worshipped as such by the Egyptians and the Cretans, as Apis. By the Chaldeans and Assyrians as Baal, or Bel.



In Sagittarius, the Sun becomes an archer. In Leo, it was Heracles, slayer of the Numean Lion. In Pisces, it was a Fish, worshipped as such by the Philistines as Dagon, and the Hindus as Vishnu.



All of the most Ancient Gods and Pantheons resolve themselves in the Solar Fire. And each Priesthood held up The Sun, as Godhead. The Supreme Deity is always the Divine Light  of the Sun, personified.



The Greeks believed that many of their Gods and Heros partook either of the visible, or the invisible attributes of the Sun. (Zeus, Apollo Uranus, Bacchus, Dionysos, Hephaestis, Heracles, Jason, Odysseus, et al )



The Norse had Baldur as a Solar Deity, and Odin Skyfather is associated with the Sun. especially signified  by his single eye.


In Egypt, Ra, Horus, Ammon, Osiris, Anubis, and Hermes all had Solar association, Isis was Mother of the New Sun with the birth of The Crowned and Conquering Child God, Horus. He would wait his time to avenge his Father, and battle Typhon/Set as the year goes on, culminating in the Death of the Sun at the Winter Solstice. Then, on the third day after the Solstice, the Dawn get's a little earlier. The New Sun, (New Son) is clearly seen to have been resurrected on the 25th of December or Yule. Incidentally, the same date the Christians chose for their resurrected New Son
.


The three days for which the dawn appears at the same time, 22nd, 23rd, and 24th December, these are the three days Jesus/Mithras/Horus/ he's said to be "nailed to the tree/ or cross. The Cross, in this sense means the cross of the Soslti and Equinoxes, as they quarter the wheel of the Year, at 90 degree angles.


The constellation of Virgo can be seen to actually give birth to the New Sun at dawn on the 25th December, the Dawn rising just at the point on the horizon where VIrgo, as Venus rises up to start her funny little horn shaped passage across the sky again. Which, having seen with my own eyes, I can attest to it's exactitude. Also, the source of the Virgin Birth of the Christian catechism. I think Mithras' mother was some kind of celestial Virgin too, and Isis was The Virgin of the World. because she gave birth to Horus in a very complicated, but specifically "No Penis Involved" way.


So to be brief ( 


The Romans had these days marked "13 days before the calends of September"and adopted by Paul,as the Catholic feast of the Assumption. The Ancient Greeks and and Romans also mark that day, as the start of the Assumption of Astrea/Astarte/Ishtar/Eaostra.


Those three days are really important to be kept separate and aside from thee rest of the year  because every fourth year, the 72 degree retrogradial motion of the Sun, demands that an extra day be taken from it, and this is where we get our leap year from. 365.25 days to the Solar year. So, each year gets an extra day for it's quarter, and the fourth year gets a day to make up the last 3 quarter days, into one whole day. (Spread over a four year cycle) That might even be Algebraic, I'n no mathematician, but the calender works like clockwork now.   


 
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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 08:43:23 AM »

Luci all things change, some in a matter of minutes, some take much longer. It depends on the
situation. All religions evolve, but balance will be maintained in a natural way, especially if humans stay out of the way. Balance is all.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2012, 11:02:11 AM »

Since we were talking about Christianity where God and Satan are not brothers, your comparison doesn't apply lucifer and imo, wrong.  Jews believe the devil to be an angel doing God's work.  Christianity believes the devil to be a fallen angel.  Those are much more related than your comparison.

Eta:  In the overall grand scheme of things, I could care less but I am fairly sure there are about 2 billion Christians who would disagree with you.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:22:28 PM by Earthbound Spirit »
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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 02:16:02 PM »

I would think it was more of a descendant of Jewdism but I've been wrong alot.
God (Ormazd) and Satan (Ahriman) fighting for control over the Earth and it's inhabitants - a war between two divine entities (actually, in Zoroastrianism, God and Satan were twin brothers, which would make more sense than one being the creator of the other...) which puts us right in the middle. Jesus was Jewish (Essene) and so the Bible is built on the old testament (which was a Jewish history) and the new testament (which was the birth and life of Jesus + some prophecy of the future stuff) but the concept base for modern Christianity as it is most commonly practiced has Zoroastrianism to thank for the introducing ``The Devil'' and the divine fight.

Luci you asked what would Pagans be in 2000 yrs. I answered.
I actually asked where Wiccans would be because Wicca has a specific practice. It was meant as a kind of reinforcer that the intentions and practice of a religion can (and likely will) become completely different over the course of a couple thousand years... unless that religion has very strict membership requirements (i.e. Judaism).

You make some interesting points, but while Zoroasterism did have an effect on the Hebrews in Egypt, it wasn't a really strong one.  The Jews maintained their original idea that all things come from G-d.  Initial Christian sects were much closer to Judaism, but the post Biblical Christian church needed an enemy to bind their members together, while also providing a glimpse at what would happen if they broke with the church's teachings.  I have a strong hunch that the Christian devil evolved there more so than from Zoroastrism. 

Serp's post above is exceptional... and as far as I can see, spot on the money.
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marisol

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 03:04:17 PM »

Yes he kicked butt with that one. I love it.
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Serpentium

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2012, 11:07:39 AM »

I think Religion would be a far better tool, if people didn't get so bogged down in the dogma of it. When you are consumed with dogma, you can't take an objective view of anything. If Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims were to stand back from the dogma, they could objectively examine each other's beliefs, which at the end of the day, are very similar.

The ecunemical point where Abrahamic religion splits, first with Christianity, then Islam, is the point of "Messiah". The Christians played this as a PR excercise, mainly in order to maximise their potential converts from orthodox Judaisim. If Jesus is indeed, the Messiah, then prophecy is fulfilled, and all of Judaism should therefore convert to Christianity.

With Islam, having  Mohammed as a prophet negates the divinity of Christ. There are only false prophets in these end times, it clearly states this in the NT, so it must be true. See? All just dogma, all nonsense.

Dogma provides nothing more than bones of contention for the wilfully ignorant, the deluded, and those who profit from such, to squabble over in the dust. They are mistaking the map, for the territory. Worse, they are re-interpreting and re-packaging the map to make sure it only has one destination, one path. If there was only one path, we wouldn't need any maps. If there was only God's word, we wouldn't need any prophets or messiahs.

"The measure of a man's spiritual worth, is not in his relationship or his devotion to his own God, it's in the measure of respect he has for the Gods of other men" ~Serp~ 
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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »

::mittens::  Serp.

I hope to get over to your side of the pond one day.  I hope you will allow me to take you out for a brew.
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Serpentium

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2012, 04:45:48 PM »

Sure thing Mate, Thanks.

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naturalpaganmomma

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Re: Magick Vs Miracle
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2012, 07:32:13 AM »

Hope I'm not repeating an older topic here, I don't remember seeing it anywhere. Just surprised its not been raised before.

Please note; if this topic can be viewed as offensive in any way, this was not my intention and I will understand if it is removed.  ;)

This is a question that came to me a long time ago, and I never really followed it through much. However, recently during my reading I came across something that reawakened this question for me. I therefore did some searching for more info on the subject and I have got to say there are a lot of negative opinions about our pagan side of this particular coin. I did notice that the majority of what I was reading was from a Christian point of view basically saying that the difference between Magick and Miracle was that, Miracles come from God and Magick comes from the devil.... Good Grief!  :-p

Now don't take me wrong here about Christians, I'm not down on them; but there are a lot of closed minds out there. I once was a Christian many years ago.

The way I see it, there was a lot of Magick performed during Biblical times, both in the old and the new testament. Moses for instance brought forth plagues in order to convince Pharaoh to free his people. Magick or Miracle? Jesus walked on water, told the fishermen where to cast their nets, changed water into wine, and even healed the sick; Magick or Miracle? And there are many other examples of strange occurrences going on that were accepted readily as Miracles of God.

To some it would probably be a matter of perspective, good Vs evil, God Vs Devil. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this, especially from the Christian members of our forum as I know they are more open minded and would be able to give a more informed and enlightened opinion than the average Christian.

I see it like this...a miracle is something that just happens on it's own, something the powers that be bring forth without our asking. Magick is something we make ourselves, something we ask for or of the powers that be.

As for religion, I prefer to have spiritual beliefs. Spiritual beliefs are personal and freeing. Religion seems to dictate and bind. It also causes a Hell of a lot of arguments. In some instances, those arguments lead to killing.
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