Celtic Connection Forums

Spiritual Connection => Wicca Q and A => Topic started by: Michelle on April 08, 2012, 08:02:21 AM

Title: LINEAGED?
Post by: Michelle on April 08, 2012, 08:02:21 AM
I don't really know why people are so quick to put so much stock in being an apparent "lineaged" wiccan. My understanding of these "traditions" is that they are mostly made-up. Not a lot was ever written down and I am yet to see a real so called book of shadows that is anything over a century old or so.

Trads. About as real as Enochian. And I still can't believe some people see that as real.

Well, if we are going to draw a line between the "classes".........
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 08, 2012, 08:24:28 AM
Just a real as ........the Catholic Church.
Also made up, just a little older is all.
When dealing with any form of tradition, it's not how old it is but rather what it carries with it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on April 08, 2012, 09:58:38 AM
I wrote an entire thread on it.

Some may consider it a "line between the classes", others will see it as a ladder to climb and still others will see it as a bunch of hooey.  Is it for everyone?  No.  Neither IS Catholicism.  Or Judaism.  Or Shinto, Islam, Calvinism or Scientology.

 Here at TCC we strive to see to it that NO religion is subject to scorn.  Question, yes, scorn no.

I AM lineaged.  It IS MY religion.  It IS every bit as "real", so to speak, as any other religion...yes, ALL religions are "man-made", so stipulated.  What they ARE is a codified road to achieve a communion with the Divine.  Any religion, ANY Divine.  As such, it has validity to it's adherents.  That validity is something that people guard.

And I guard Wicca.  Specifically.  I'll NOT see it derided. 

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Michelle on April 08, 2012, 06:05:36 PM
I'm not out to pull wicca or witchraft down, it's just time and again I've seen this thing happen where a forum can become really polarised with regards who is lineaged or from a traditional witch family. It makes those of us (who form the vast majority) to feel as if we don't really belong here, as if all the "lineaged" and "trads" just put up with us and barely tolerate us. It's like unless we can prove some form of hereditary connection we just are not taken seriously. We become like the "fluffies" (another term I don't like).

Of course all religions and religious practice is made up, and you are quite correct (CA) in saying it's the belief and the worship that's really the important thing. Just don't throw all that 2nd degree this and that at the rest of us who may actually choose to be solitary practitioners. As a pre-op transgender for instance I am in no way going to go to a coven who practice their worship skyclad (a practice that can so often attract the wrong kind). 2nd degree this and 4th degree that is just about as valid here as my being a level 4 Dungeon Master in a popular role-play game. Keep it to your covens please.

Lineaged and non lineaged can so easily split a forum. CA, you already closed your own thread upon the subject to those "non lineaged" forum members. Obviously, and feeling quite strongly upon this issue, my only recourse was to start my own thread that was open to "everyone" upon the subject.

Fair is fair.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on April 08, 2012, 07:18:45 PM
I haven't see where an emphasis is placed that "Lineaged" are more important than others in this forum. And I haven't gotten that impression. C_A has ALWAYS treated me fairly and with respect. I suppose that I am a "Natural Witch" because some of the spellwork doesn't really seem too difficult. If there HAS been anything like that directed towards you, I suggest that you take it to the Mods. Again, I may have missed it, if so.........disregard. LOL
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 09, 2012, 07:09:03 AM
Seriously?

I think I am probably one of the few here who can make that claim.  I know my tradition goes back at least 15 generations. 

I don't share my path in detail, I don't accept neophytes, I do not train nor teach others.  It is a family tradition and I don't work with anyone outside of family.  If that makes me seem like I'm stuck up or think I'm better than anyone it isn't true.  It's actually quite simple, it's a family tradition.  I don't know of any lineaged witches who share, teach or mentor their path to outsiders.

It isn't a special club one can join, it's a matter of birth.  I am very open about my path and will, when asked work with anyone on a special project or need.  I have no issues sharing the ideas or principles behind spells or rituals that I have been taught.

I personally don't post a lot here because of the whole copywrite issue and I have a lot of irons in the fire that I don't want snatched and used as someone else's work.  It's already happened more than once (not here for the record) and I refuse to allow anyone else to get credit or paid for my words.

If you feel I'm snotty or stuck up in regards to my path, I apologize, I don't think I've ever said no to anyone when asked for help, my deciding factor being if you are an adult and if you haven't been a complete shithead to me.  You've never asked me anything.

I get asked about Wicca a lot simply because I've done my year and a day and achieved the third degree when in high school and college within a local group of what is now the Piedmont Church of Wicca.  I've said many times, that Wicca just isn't the right fit for me.  It doesn't change that I, at one time, not only thought it was the next logical step in my path, but that I also studied and worked very hard for a number of years to realize it wasn't where I needed to be.

I have never seen anyone get snotty or nasty about being lineaged, we just don't share as most who are lineaged are not Wiccans, but are witches from a family tradition.  It's nothing personal.  We don't share anywhere.  Mainly because somewhere in everyone's tradition of any length there are one or more who were killed for being a witch and you are raised to keep your mouth shut.

It's kind of hard to be a lineaged Wiccan when the tradition only goes back to 1939.  I mean how many generations can that actually be?  So I don't see this as a slam on Wicca, maybe a touch of ignorance in Wicca and how long it really has been around.  More of a slam on witches as, for the most part, we are the ones who come from family traditions which is, the only way one can actually be "lineaged". 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on April 09, 2012, 07:26:50 AM
It's kind of hard to be a lineaged Wiccan when the tradition only goes back to 1939.  I mean how many generations can that actually be?  So I don't see this as a slam on Wicca, maybe a touch of ignorance in Wicca and how long it really has been around.  More of a slam on witches as, for the most part, we are the ones who come from family traditions which is, the only way one can actually be "lineaged". 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage)

The idea of LINEAGE as it pertains to Wicca is that one DOES, indeed, "join a special club".  A coven which has roots that CAN, indeed, be traced back to the covens of Gardner, Sanders, Buckland et. ux, et. al.

As well as MOST of the family-line witches I know do NOT identify themselves as Wiccan is the core issue, here.  I know plenty of Wiccans that couldn't cast a spell to open their umbrella in the rain, but are devout in their worship of the Lord and Lady.  I also know some Voudun and Pow-wows that can whip a spell on you that you wouldn't believe, but wouldn't know the Lord and Lady if they bumped into them in a crowd.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 09, 2012, 07:38:22 AM
I'm sorry is that not what I said?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Michelle on April 09, 2012, 09:12:57 AM
I would so agree with Khara that it's just such a personal thing, such a secret thing (if that is the right word to use). My only bitch against the whole lineaged thing actually stems from another forum - a coven of witches actually - where I was asked if I as a wiccan or a trad witch. Being somewhat simple as I am I had no idea as to how I should answer, I have a belief structure that is pretty close to wicca in most aspects. Well, I guess i out stayed my welcome there as I found it quite uncomfortable - the "trad witches" wanted nothing to do with the "wiccans" and vise versa.

I applaude khara for how she handles her traditional and familial traditions upon the subject. ie: It's not at my expense and she becomes a person of whome I may one day learn something from, rather than just being told I am not a traditional this or that and so I don't really count.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 09, 2012, 10:11:17 AM
Just because I can trace my path back a number of genrations does not make me any more knowledgable or true to what I believe. 

Those who look down on or talk down to anyone claiming it is because they aren't lineaged is just another form of racism.  This being due to one's religion.

It is no different than Jews trash talking christians or vice versa.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on April 09, 2012, 10:39:20 AM
It IS exclusive, yes.  But...discriminatory?  Hardly. 

Bolshevik Weenies(c) aside, we DO tend to keep BOYS in "Boy" scouts and GIRLS in their own club.

I actually have no problem with non-lineaged wiccans.  It's the McWiccans I take umbrage with.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: The Pet Goddess on April 09, 2012, 11:28:26 AM
Out of curiosity, how far back does one have to go in their geneology to be considered a lineage Wiccan or witch?

In my opinion, being able to trace your lineage back 15 generations, be you witch or not, is quite an accomplishment!   Six generations is as far back as I can find in my family tree.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 09, 2012, 11:37:00 AM
I would so agree with Khara that it's just such a personal thing, such a secret thing (if that is the right word to use). My only bitch against the whole lineaged thing actually stems from another forum - a coven of witches actually - where I was asked if I as a wiccan or a trad witch. Being somewhat simple as I am I had no idea as to how I should answer, I have a belief structure that is pretty close to wicca in most aspects. Well, I guess i out stayed my welcome there as I found it quite uncomfortable - the "trad witches" wanted nothing to do with the "wiccans" and vise versa.

I applaude khara for how she handles her traditional and familial traditions upon the subject. ie: It's not at my expense and she becomes a person of whome I may one day learn something from, rather than just being told I am not a traditional this or that and so I don't really count.

As a Christian witch, I imagine I would really break the stereotypes... LOL
Just tell them you're a plain old witchy witch... yep... Khara rocks... seriously...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on April 09, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
A lineaged WICCAN can only go as far back as the beginning of Wicca.  WITCHES can go back to time immemorial.  Actually, I can trace Witchcraft back on my Mom's side for three and my Dad's side for eight.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 09, 2012, 12:43:48 PM
Out of curiosity, how far back does one have to go in their geneology to be considered a lineage Wiccan or witch?

In my opinion, being able to trace your lineage back 15 generations, be you witch or not, is quite an accomplishment!   Six generations is as far back as I can find in my family tree.

I am fortunate that being Irish we keep everything,  I have BOS's (for lack of a better term) going back to my greatX9 grandmothers, I have references going back farther than that.

In truth, most covens will allow you to "lineage out" (give you the credit for a year and a day) with proof of 5 generations and knowing your stuff.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Michelle on April 10, 2012, 04:41:28 AM
This thread could so easily have gone to trash like some others, yet look at who is posting here - We have witches from generations ago, wiccans also, even a christian witch.

I for one like this thread as I am actually learning something useful here. In that other forum all i was left with was a bad feeling with regards do i really belong. I feel like I really belong here. Perhaps in my family I could be the first of a traditional witch family, who knows? At least I'm not just excluded out of hand.

 :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Arnemetia on April 10, 2012, 07:21:21 AM
Michelle, I am glad you are here.  You bring up some interesting topics.  Thank you.

I remember my Grandmother making what she called "helpers" and telling me not to tell my mother she showed me.  All she explained was they were a part of my heritage and my mother didn't want to know how so she was teaching me.  I now know those "helpers" to be spells.  I wish I had been older so I could have learned more from her.  She crossed over when I was 5 or 6.  Years later when I asked my mother about them, she said it was all Grandma's superstition.  That confirmed it for me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 10, 2012, 11:11:31 AM
I think the key term here is "religion".  I'm a Christian witch, but follow no religion.  Christianity is my spiritual faith, not my religion; from my perspective, all religion is basically designed as a power structure, with priests at the top and everyone else at the bottom.  Just makes no sense to me to ask another to interpret G-d for me when I have as much access as the next person.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: The Pet Goddess on April 10, 2012, 03:01:07 PM
II'm a Christian witch, but follow no religion.  Christianity is my spiritual faith, not my religion....

Nice.  I never heard it explained that way.  Thank you for the insight.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 10, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
Nice.  I never heard it explained that way.  Thank you for the insight.

Now you know how strange I really am... *LOL*
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 11, 2012, 01:39:48 PM
I think the key term here is "religion".  I'm a Christian witch, but follow no religion.  Christianity is my spiritual faith, not my religion; from my perspective, all religion is basically designed as a power structure, with priests at the top and everyone else at the bottom.  Just makes no sense to me to ask another to interpret G-d for me when I have as much access as the next person.

How does a Christian witch actually perform magic? I thought a witch believes s/he manifests change through their own will. Christians say that prayer can manifest change through God's will. How do you reconcile the two?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 11, 2012, 02:17:34 PM
How does a Christian witch actually perform magic? I thought a witch believes s/he manifests change through their own will. Christians say that prayer can manifest change through God's will. How do you reconcile the two?

Which Christians?  Just because I have a G-d doesn't mean I can't also extend my own will if I choose.  I figure if G-d handles the big stuff, I can still take care of the light work...  I'm not a Biblical Christian, but lean more strongly towards Gnosticism.  The Bible was basically hijacked by Constantine and Paul...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 11, 2012, 02:29:40 PM
So, do gnostic Christians effect magic through their own will or do they channel the power of their God. If it is the latter, does the gnostic christian decide how and when to deploy the magic or does the deity? I'm interest to hear your beliefs, I am only really familiar with Pauline Christians.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 11, 2012, 03:01:23 PM
So, do gnostic Christians effect magic through their own will or do they channel the power of their God. If it is the latter, does the gnostic christian decide how and when to deploy the magic or does the deity? I'm interest to hear your beliefs, I am only really familiar with Pauline Christians.

In the allegory of the Garden of Eden, the Serpent was the catalyst to provide Mankind with free will.  Knowing Good and Evil, they became responsible for their actions, and were free to choose their own path, so I do what I feel is appropriate, accepting the consequences or rewards and hopefully learning in the process.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on April 12, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
So, do gnostic Christians effect magic through their own will or do they channel the power of their God. If it is the latter, does the gnostic christian decide how and when to deploy the magic or does the deity? I'm interest to hear your beliefs, I am only really familiar with Pauline Christians.
Gnostics don't so much effect Magic, rather they achieve a personal direct communion with their God. It's generally considered a Heresy by the big three, because it dispenses with the need for intercession. But Hindus are pretty up with it, and there are still Heretical Gnostic sects of the Abrahmic Religions. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on April 12, 2012, 03:16:50 PM
Gnostics don't so much effect Magic, rather they achieve a personal direct communion with their God. It's generally considered a Heresy by the big three, because it dispenses with the need for intercession. But Hindus are pretty up with it, and there are still Heretical Gnostic sects of the Abrahmic Religions.

Pretty good explanation... better than mine... they were branded as Heretics by the Orthodoxy.  But any way you look at it, magic is magic... it works the same way, just has different bells and whistles.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 20, 2012, 02:43:50 PM
Gnostics don't so much effect Magic, rather they achieve a personal direct communion with their God. It's generally considered a Heresy by the big three, because it dispenses with the need for intercession. But Hindus are pretty up with it, and there are still Heretical Gnostic sects of the Abrahmic Religions.

No. This is incorrect. Personal direct communion with God is not considered a heresy in mainstream Christianity.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on April 25, 2012, 08:05:02 AM
No. This is incorrect. Personal direct communion with God is not considered a heresy in mainstream Christianity.

It is. Christianity is quite clear that the only way to God, is through Jesus Christ. Orthodox Christians and Catholics have to pray to one of the Saints, to intercede between them and God. And the resurrected Jesus only speaks to the Pope. That's why the Cathars were put down. It's why Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake.
It's why Christian Mystics all ways lived up a pole, or in cave somewhere. 
Christianity accepts Jesus as Messiah. The last Prophet. And God speaking directly to men turns all that on it's head. That's why Christianity is so oppositional to Islam, because Mohammed is  claimed to be a Prophet.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 25, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
It is. Christianity is quite clear that the only way to God, is through Jesus Christ. Orthodox Christians and Catholics have to pray to one of the Saints, to intercede between them and God. And the resurrected Jesus only speaks to the Pope. That's why the Cathars were put down. It's why Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake.
It's why Christian Mystics all ways lived up a pole, or in cave somewhere. 
Christianity accepts Jesus as Messiah. The last Prophet. And God speaking directly to men turns all that on it's head. That's why Christianity is so oppositional to Islam, because Mohammed is  claimed to be a Prophet.
This is in a forum about Wicca, so I am not sure that a long debate about Christianity or Islam is appropriate here. HOWEVER, where do you get your comments on the Catholic Church from? Landover Baptists? The Cathars were about eight hundred years ago and
Joan of Arc about 1400.

I have a little bit of knowledge about Catholicism and trust me they do not "have to pray to saints". They pray to Jesus, who they believe is part of the triune God, and they seek a direct personal relationship with him. I am not a Catholic apologist, merely commenting on information that is plain wrong. Your comments are right up there with "wiccans worship Satan".
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 25, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
well miss nya you sure as hell must belong to a different catholic church than I've ever been too, maybe you should stop knee jerking and just shut up or admit you were wrong in your snarkassed comment.

In any event if you aren't a hereditary witch why are you commenting?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 25, 2012, 07:56:33 PM
As to the comments about Christians and / or Catholics not being able to talk to God, I've got to say.....
 
Through tradition, they generally speak through Jesus or a Saint or during mass through the priest. But there is nothing preventing them from praying to God and receiving a reply. Talking = Prayer.
I'm not Catholic and I'm no expert on the subject. Just do a google search on "can catholics speak to god" and check out the wide range of answers.
 
Ummm....try to avoid the ones that suggest an intamacy with him though......a "little out there"
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 12:39:41 AM
This is in a forum about Wicca, so I am not sure that a long debate about Christianity or Islam is appropriate here. HOWEVER, where do you get your comments on the Catholic Church from? Landover Baptists? The Cathars were about eight hundred years ago and
Joan of Arc about 1400.

I have a little bit of knowledge about Catholicism and trust me they do not "have to pray to saints". They pray to Jesus, who they believe is part of the triune God, and they seek a direct personal relationship with him. I am not a Catholic apologist, merely commenting on information that is plain wrong. Your comments are right up there with "wiccans worship Satan".

You got some issues with Serp haven't you? Pissing contest much?

Ima get the popcorn and watch the fireworks that develop if you keep baiting him.

No one ever managed to best him yet and I've seen enough of your posts to know you have neither the talent nor the knowledge base to break that record now.


As to the comments about Christians and / or Catholics not being able to talk to God, I've got to say.....
 
Through tradition, they generally speak through Jesus or a Saint or during mass through the priest. But there is nothing preventing them from praying to God and receiving a reply. Talking = Prayer.
I'm not Catholic and I'm no expert on the subject. Just do a google search on "can catholics speak to god" and check out the wide range of answers.
 
Ummm....try to avoid the ones that suggest an intamacy with him though......a "little out there"
Lapsed Catholics are fascinating to observe in the light of this topic. I have a few lapsed Catholic friends who remind me a lot of pagans in the way they approach their deity. They have moved away from the formal Church due to problems with things like refusing the Sacraments to gay people, and the non action on child abuse by the clergy. However, they still very much believe in the Trinity and take their rituals much to heart. They all still regard themselves as Catholic, just not as being aligned with Vatican protocols and edicts.

The relationship for these people was always and still is intrinsically gnostic in its nature. They held to their god when they left their Church, so it must have been, right?

The Church hierarchy most certainly seeks to distance people from their god. To be the essential intermediary. To stop them interpreting their holy texts as they will. It just doesn't always work.

Sinead O'Connor is such a person. She sees the Trinity as the one god - and the one god as the Trinity. This is very much an established Catholic Church teaching. She says that the problem with the Vatican hierarchy is that they do not have the Holy Spirit within them

She makes a good case for that too.

To say that talking to Jesus is not talking to god for these people is akin to saying that azure is not a shade of blue. And to say they are not real Catholics would be seen by them as an insult beyond measure. For such people it is the Church which has abandoned their god - not them.

And btw: what's wrong with "out there"??
Out there is where you see all the best stuff!
lol

well miss nya you sure as hell must belong to a different catholic church than I've ever been too, maybe you should stop knee jerking and just shut up or admit you were wrong in your snarkassed comment.

In any event if you aren't a hereditary witch why are you commenting?

Poking sleeping dragons seems to be a favourite hobby of hers.

She'll get burnt one day for her troubles.
 ;D

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on April 26, 2012, 07:43:45 AM
Okay, folks....show's over.  Move along...

BACK on TRACK ITT about Lineaged Wicca.

Thank you.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 08:31:21 AM
Quote
Don't think of them as "Threads," think of them as "Strings.". And the First Law of Forum Mechanics™ states that "a String that starts in one universe, will inevitably wind up in another."

My mate Meds, in full self justification mode.

 :-*
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 26, 2012, 08:44:35 AM
My mate Meds, in full self justification mode.

 :-*

One of the best quotes (and truest) I've read in a long time. Love it!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 09:56:33 AM
Well, well, where to start.

Miss Khara, I was not aware that only hereditary witches could comment on public forums. So, madam, why don't you shut up with your snotty comments.

Dark Magus, for Christians, and yes that includes Catholics, Jesus is God, so talking or praying to him is talking to God. And find me any Pentecostal that would say they have anything other than a direct personal relationship with God.

Scorched Eartha. Are you really quoting Sinead O'Connor as an example I should take seriously? Nothing to add to that but Bwhahaha. And as for your friend, I do not have "issues" with him. He made inaccurate statements about a religion I know well and I corrected them. Just as any of the Wiccans here would correct misleading claims that they worship Satan. Plus I am sure he can speak for himself, doesn't need you as a mouthpiece.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 10:28:08 AM
Well, well, where to start.

Miss Khara, I was not aware that only hereditary witches could comment on public forums. So, madam, why don't you shut up with your snotty comments.

Dark Magus, for Christians, and yes that includes Catholics, Jesus is God, so talking or praying to him is talking to God. And find me any Pentecostal that would say they have anything other than a direct personal relationship with God.

Scorched Eartha. Are you really quoting Sinead O'Connor as an example I should take seriously? Nothing to add to that but Bwhahaha. And as for your friend, I do not have "issues" with him. He made inaccurate statements about a religion I know well and I corrected them. Just as any of the Wiccans here would correct misleading claims that they worship Satan. Plus I am sure he can speak for himself, doesn't need you as a mouthpiece.





I'm pretty sure Sinead O'Connor gives about as much of a feck about your opinion of her as I do your opinion of me.

 ::)

btw: I interpreted Khara's comment to mean that since in 100 posts you've yet to make a valuable, meaningful, informative  or entertaining  contribution to the forum that maybe you ought to stop flapping your gums and listen to those who do know something.

Just sayin'.

(http://quichemoraine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/troll.jpg)


Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 10:48:39 AM
Well, well, where to start.

Miss Khara, I was not aware that only hereditary witches could comment on public forums. So, madam, why don't you shut up with your snotty comments.

Never said as much, so this is the point where I say DIAF biotch.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 11:12:54 AM
Wouldn't you say wishing me to die in a fire is just a little bit disproportionate? Moderators, is it acceptable for one poster to say this to another on this site? Grateful for your clarification.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 11:27:41 AM
 
btw: I interpreted Khara's comment to mean that since in 100 posts you've yet to make a valuable, meaningful, informative  or entertaining  contribution to the forum that maybe you ought to stop flapping your gums and listen to those who do know something.

I won't be listening to you then lol.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 11:29:49 AM
 
btw: I interpreted Khara's comment to mean that since in 100 posts you've yet to make a valuable, meaningful, informative  or entertaining  contribution to the forum that maybe you ought to stop flapping your gums and listen to those who do know something.

I won't be listening to you then lol.

Yo dumbass learn to respond to the person you are quoting and quit putting words in my mouth I never said.

kthanxbai
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 11:30:58 AM
Wouldn't you say wishing me to die in a fire is just a little bit disproportionate? Moderators, is it acceptable for one poster to say this to another on this site? Grateful for your clarification.

Never said I wished it.  You need to learn to read.  Or maybe it's reading comprehension you need to work on.

Not sure if I should even bother, you can't even remember who you are quoting when you try to troll them.

It's sad.  I prefer a better quality troll.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 11:36:08 AM
Who are you to call anyone dumbass? I wasn't quoting you, that was for your sidekick. Now go and have (yet another) tantrum and meltdown somewhere else, I want to talk to adults.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 11:39:42 AM
Who are you to call anyone dumbass? I wasn't quoting you, that was for your sidekick. Now go and have (yet another) tantrum and meltdown somewhere else, I want to talk to adults.

Read what you wrote DUMBASS!!!  I am Khara you twat.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 11:40:19 AM
Sleeper troll is still a troll.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 11:45:54 AM
Calm down dear. The reference to you is made in a post by your friend scorched Eartha. Suggest you go and read it. Now enough with the bad language we have young teenagers on this forum. Sigh.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 11:53:12 AM
Calm down dear. The reference to you is made in a post by your friend scorched Eartha. Suggest you go and read it. Now enough with the bad language we have young teenagers on this forum. Sigh.

You're a special one aren't you?  And by special I do mean retarded.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 11:58:36 AM
You're a special one aren't you?  And by special I do mean retarded.

And you are a bully prone to histrionics, but you don't intimidate me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 11:58:45 AM
Wouldn't you say wishing me to die in a fire is just a little bit disproportionate? Moderators, is it acceptable for one poster to say this to another on this site? Grateful for your clarification.

DIAF is an acronym for Dumbfvck Imbecile Attacking the Forum, innit Khara?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 12:00:32 PM
And you are a bully prone to histrionics, but you don't intimidate me.

LMAO.  Such a sad little troll.  What's wrong, do you think I don't know what is going on because I'm blocked from your little planning place?  I see everything.  I get daily screen shots sent to me.  You are failing at your troll, go back to your master and tell him to teach you a new line.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 12:01:07 PM
It's an alert to the Mods - let them know the pests are in again.

btw - how come you lot ain't used the back door your boss says he has the key to???

I mean apart from: Coz he's full of shit about that too, obviously.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 12:01:55 PM
DIAF is an acronym for Dumbfvck Imbecile Attacking the Forum, innit Khara?

Well for normal people it is, however for Discordians it does mean Die in a Fire.

In truth, either will work in this situation.

She's just grumpy because she isn't getting any craigslist action.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 12:06:50 PM
DIAF is an acronym for Dumbfvck Imbecile Attacking the Forum, innit Khara?

and you are a coward who only pipes up when one of your cronies is around. I am not a troll, just an ordinary poster standing up to foul mouthed bullies.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 12:09:53 PM
and you are a coward who only pipes up when one of your cronies is around. I am not a troll, just an ordinary poster standing up to foul mouthed bullies.

I've been posting all along with or without anyone else around, so that is yet another line of crap.

You do notice, as will the mods, that you completely ignore direct references to your real reason for being here.

Hows things down south?  Not far outside Nawlins right? 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 12:11:40 PM
Well for normal people it is, however for Discordians it does mean Die in a Fire.

In truth, either will work in this situation.

She's just grumpy because she isn't getting any craigslist action.

Hang on..I have a tool for tools like her:

(http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/Smileys/default/barstoolsvo9.gif)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 12:14:44 PM
LMAO.  Such a sad little troll.  What's wrong, do you think I don't know what is going on because I'm blocked from your little planning place?  I see everything.  I get daily screen shots sent to me.  You are failing at your troll, go back to your master and tell him to teach you a new line.

I have no idea what is going on in your head or who your delusions are telling you I am. You may want to see someone about the paranoia. Seriously.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on April 26, 2012, 12:16:37 PM
I  was gonna post on the subject Lineaged I'll pass for now.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 12:19:18 PM
Hang on..I have a tool for tools like her:

(http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/Smileys/default/barstoolsvo9.gif)

So are you like co-dependent then?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 12:20:15 PM
I have no idea what is going on in your head or who your delusions are telling you I am. You may want to see someone about the paranoia. Seriously.

We know precisely who you are...it was a toss up really between you and another of his rabid bitches  till your unprofessional and talentless trolling "techniques" allowed you to drop the bomb about a Catholic heritage - then it was pretty damn clear - Though I must admit I always judged you a tad too literate to be the Toothless one anyway -

Now you've fallen over and got a sore arse should I call you a waaambulance sweetheart?

Or have you managed to get a job driving one yet?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 12:28:26 PM
We know precisely who you are...it was a toss up really between you and another of his rabid bitches  till your unprofessional and talentless trolling "techniques" allowed you to drop the bomb about a Catholic heritage - then it was pretty damn clear - Though I must admit I always judged you a tad too literate to be the Toothless one anyway -

Now you've fallen over and got a sore arse should I call you a waaambulance sweetheart?

Or have you managed to get a job driving one yet?

Lol. No big secret that I am a Catholic. All I did was correct inaccurate information about my path, which I have seen many people do on this and other sites. The only "rabid bitches" are you and your friend.

But please do tell who is this "He" that you keep referring to.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on April 26, 2012, 12:46:52 PM
nya how can you post intelligently about Wicca if you are Catholic. Are you changing your religion?
But why alienate the people that could help you. If you are trollingI am telling you you can't win.
What I am saying gently is just go home.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 12:58:28 PM
nya how can you post intelligently about Wicca if you are Catholic. Are you changing your religion?
But why alienate the people that could help you. If you are trollingI am telling you you can't win.
What I am saying gently is just go home.

Marisol, I thank you for your courtesy. Respectfully, I don't think being one thing automatically means you cannot post about something else. I am not changing my religion and I only brought it up in response to a comment from another poster.

I am not a troll. I was just defending myself against a nasty pair who between them called me twat, rabid bitch, dumbass and told me to die in a fire. What would you do?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 01:02:46 PM
Marisol, I thank you for your courtesy. Respectfully, I don't think being one thing automatically means you cannot post about something else. I am not changing my religion and I only brought it up in response to a comment from another poster.

I am not a troll. I was just defending myself against a nasty pair who between them called me twat, rabid bitch, dumbass and told me to die in a fire. What would you do?

Listen love your tell was too obvious...DIAF is not well known on the web as an acronym outside of your limited social circle - you know - the  Discordian one - you fell on your arse - go bandage it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 01:05:45 PM
Listen love your tell was too obvious...DIAF is not well known on the web as an acronym outside of your limited social circle - you know - the  Discordian one - you fell on your arse - go bandage it.

Actually I had no idea what it meant. I googled it. What on earth is a Discordian? Do you hear voices in your head as well sweetheart?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 01:18:13 PM
Actually I had no idea what it meant. I googled it. What on earth is a Discordian? Do you hear voices in your head as well sweetheart?

If bullshit was music you'd be a bloody symphony orchestra sweetheart.

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 01:39:29 PM
If bullshit was music you'd be a bloody symphony orchestra sweetheart.

If you were ten times as smart you would still be stupid.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 01:48:28 PM
If you were ten times as smart you would still be stupid.

YAWN

I have told you already learn a new line.  Has that Louisiana sun fried your brain?  Or have you finally drank yourself into a semi-coma?  Are you going to cry and say someone "hacked" your account when this is all said and done?  You've tried that one before, it won't work here.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 26, 2012, 02:15:10 PM
YAWN

I have told you already learn a new line.  Has that Louisiana sun fried your brain?  Or have you finally drank yourself into a semi-coma?  Are you going to cry and say someone "hacked" your account when this is all said and done?  You've tried that one before, it won't work here.

You are tuppence short of a shilling.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 26, 2012, 03:22:12 PM
Dark Magus, for Christians, and yes that includes Catholics, Jesus is God, so talking or praying to him is talking to God. And find me any Pentecostal that would say they have anything other than a direct personal relationship with God.

Hells bells, even when people try to agree with you, you tend to go to the negative side of the pool.
 
I've been back through your posts since you joined this little community and I really have to ask...why are you here?
You have said that (recently) you are defending yourself...from what I've seen, defense won't be needed if you hadn't start the argument in the first place.
There are just a few people here that post on a regular basis and you now have the reputation as a troll with the majority of them. Do you enjoy confrontation?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 03:58:47 PM
Well if she does I can't imagine why.
She isn't very good at it.

 ;D





Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 26, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
Remember my other thread about the way people reply based on their environment............
She's probably bitter about living in council housing.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 04:12:48 PM
It's hot in Louisiana she's probably got a heat rash.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on April 26, 2012, 04:56:46 PM
SE....I LOVE that pic of the bridge!!! Too funny!!!!

nya, this thread was started about LINEAGED AKA hereditary (right, C_A??) Wiccans, if you reread the ORIGINAL post, it is stated that it is mainly for those who fall in that category to comment. I am not lineaged...I can't trace that there are a ton of Wiccans in my family tree, just that there are Native Americans **cough*Pocahontas*cough** and British royalty along with some other interesting tidbits. But I CAN speak to the fact that I have not seen any ill will or anyone saying that only those who CAN trace their Wiccan roots back to the Salem Trials are allowed to post on this forum.

I suggest that if you are TRULY in NOLA (as Khara is convinced......idk, I could possibly beg a programmer I know to help me get the IP addy), you MUST be getting your panties in a know because your precious Saints have been proven to be the dirty-playing, eavesdropping, paid to hit injured playing, cheaters that the entire NFL and ESPECIALLY the NFC South has always known and said they were. That NOLA voodoo ain't gonna get ya'll outta this mess. Tuck your tail and lick your wounds, then come back to play with the big boys when you know how to play by the rules! (And that goes for this forum as well).

PS.....To the mods, forgive me if this rant was considered mean or attacking......I'm dealing with some personal things right now.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 04:57:32 PM
It's hot in Louisiana she's probably got a heat rash.

She's got a foot up her arse now...two in fact!
LMAO

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 05:04:16 PM
SE....I LOVE that pic of the bridge!!! Too funny!!!!

It's a good 'un isn't it? I was quite chuffed with that.

I've downloaded it for future use...there are still a few smelly turds lying about the place we need to clear out.

And Michelle: I am truly sorry this happened on your thread but she had to be taken on - she was out to cause strife here -  both for people and between people - it was why she courted Blue so strenuously and made fake alliances with his other champions.

Just a niote and I mean this well for any of you it may pertain to: If she's been PM'ing anyone she would have been taking notes and keeping info for later use against the person/s who confided in her - it's their modus operandi.

So watch your back - there are plenty more of them still here.



Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on April 26, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
So then how do we know that YOU can be trusted? You might be one of THEM.........I might be one of THEM....They are EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where can I hide?

**********End of paranoia rant. Return to the normal banter**********
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
I honestly am a terrible troll, I end up making friends on the expedition and staying.

This place is a perfect example. Came for the troll and stayed for the friends.  Now protecting a place I care about is a whole other story.

Y'all need to understand, you see a lot of my best behavior.  The shit these trolls and people like blue say to and about Eartha and me here is a bible study compared to the shit that was said and done to especially her on multiple forums, in pms and emails. 

They said shit that would make you physically ill.  Not to mention taking shit to people irl at their work. It was very bad.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 26, 2012, 06:31:37 PM
I honestly am a terrible troll, I end up making friends on the expedition and staying.

This place is a perfect example. Came for the troll and stayed for the friends.  Now protecting a place I care about is a whole other story.

Y'all need to understand, you see a lot of my best behavior.  The shit these trolls and people like blue say to and about Eartha and me here is a bible study compared to the shit that was said and done to especially her on multiple forums, in pms and emails. 

They said shit that would make you physically ill.  Not to mention taking shit to people irl at their work. It was very bad.

LOL, there was a time we went at it tooth and nail!  8)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 06:36:21 PM
S'Fine though. We're blooded now. I no longer expect some of these people to behave with any level of civilisation, decorum, manners, decency, honour - and esp not any imagination.

They have a stock standard roll of insults, epithets and accusations and when they run out of those or when even they can see the tedium of their repetition of the list, they say things like "Bwahahaha" and "and if you were 10 times as smart you'd still be stupid"

Oooh burn....take me to the hospital.

 ;D


I enjoy my work with some. The ones who really seem to deserve one's ire  - for their  essence of bullshit and bile cocktail of hate.
Why I've even been known to pen poetry to them - they didn't like it much though.

**sad sigh**

All artistes must suffer some rejection, eh?



Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 26, 2012, 06:48:48 PM

LOL, there was a time we went at it tooth and nail!  8)

LOL and look at us now!!!  ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 26, 2012, 07:21:27 PM
lol...yes I've commented on that before.

I think you and I had made quite good mates dm before any trouble started - but still I was really chuffed when you stepped right up over Blue. Made me feel all kind of fuzzy and cared about it did.

You're a funny bugger too, when you go at a righttwat .

 ;D
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 26, 2012, 08:05:22 PM
Awwww shucks.....feel'n all warm and tingly.........
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 27, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
I honestly am a terrible troll, I end up making friends on the expedition and staying.

This place is a perfect example. Came for the troll and stayed for the friends.  Now protecting a place I care about is a whole other story.

Y'all need to understand, you see a lot of my best behavior.  The shit these trolls and people like blue say to and about Eartha and me here is a bible study compared to the shit that was said and done to especially her on multiple forums, in pms and emails. 

They said shit that would make you physically ill.  Not to mention taking shit to people irl at
their work. It was very bad.

Can't understand why anyone would react like that to sweet ladies like you and your sidekick. If this is a common theme, have you ever thought that the problem could be you? Anyway must dash, have some alligators to catch out here in the bayou.

Then again, it is probably HIM. HE has minions everywhere, in government, business, education and THEY are all out to get YOU.

Lol, you sad mare. Done a job on me? You couldn't do a job on roadkill, then again you probably take it back to the trailer to eat it. Bon après midi.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: nya on April 27, 2012, 12:36:03 AM
It's a good 'un isn't it? I was quite chuffed with that.

I've downloaded it for future use...there are still a few smelly turds lying about the place we need to clear out.

And Michelle: I am truly sorry this happened on your thread but she had to be taken on - she was out to cause strife here -  both for people and between people - it was why she courted Blue so strenuously and made fake alliances with his other champions.

Just a niote and I mean this well for any of you it may pertain to: If she's been PM'ing anyone
 she would have been taking notes and keeping info for later use against the person/s who
confided in her - it's their modus operandi.

You are another barmy cow, or are you the same person. Would not surprise me at all. Anyway, I expect I will be banned by tonight, but that is ok it has been a lot of fun. In all seriousness, I urge you to seek help about this paranoia thing. I don't know this boogeyman you are obsessed with, and the influence you seem to think he has is not real. Take care, you are obviously fragile, so I am not going to play with you any more. Byee.




So watch your back - there are plenty more of them still here.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 27, 2012, 02:04:58 AM


Yeah we know. We've clocked a fair few of them...we're just  taking our time. Working on the dark goddess at the moment -  That has been fun.

When we've brushed her off, we'll go see who else is lurking about under bridges smelling up the joint. We have a few tyres chalked.

You're far better than she is just quietly - it took a few more posts of yours to pick you for a fact...like the actual ID and all. Honestly for a short while there you flew under the radar as just another twat...it was rather well done.

But she stood out like a dogs ball on a mulberry bush from  the get go.Sad really. She thinks she's clever.

It took me 20 mins Google-ing to track down the name and birthdate of her past life incarnation. And the embellishments about duelling and rapiers.

NB: You need to work on the British idioms and don't let people fluster or anger you to the point where you drop TOO MUCH INFORMATION... Birmingham ...tsk tsk. Rookie mistake.

But all in all a good effort, unbacked up as you were. Showed spirit too.

See you next time.
 :-*





I

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 27, 2012, 03:16:30 AM
That went in twice. I deleted the duplicate post.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 27, 2012, 06:13:37 AM
Can't understand why anyone would react like that to sweet ladies like you and your sidekick. If this is a common theme, have you ever thought that the problem could be you? Anyway must dash, have some alligators to catch out here in the bayou.

I’m sure it is me.  I’m sure you think everything that was said and done was fully justified in the name of the Horrible Truth ™.  Why don’t we search out your work email and send you nasty emails and see how your boss likes it. 

Then again, it is probably HIM. HE has minions everywhere, in government, business, education and THEY are all out to get YOU.

LOL did you copy that word for word?  That’s plagiarism you know.

Lol, you sad mare. Done a job on me? You couldn't do a job on roadkill, then again you probably take it back to the trailer to eat it. Bon après midi.

Well better a sad mare than a trolling heifer, but hey, it’s all in the game right?  As for the rest of this statement, are you high? Where did I ever say any of that?

You really should stop putting words in my mouth.  You keep quoting other people and responding to me.  If you can't keep up then step aside and let the grown ups talk.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on April 27, 2012, 06:16:01 PM
I don't really know why people are so quick to put so much stock in being an apparent "lineaged" wiccan. My understanding of these "traditions" is that they are mostly made-up. Not a lot was ever written down and I am yet to see a real so called book of shadows that is anything over a century old or so.

Trads. About as real as Enochian. And I still can't believe some people see that as real.

Well, if we are going to draw a line between the "classes".........

Hi,

I am a new poster here so I will give a little about my Wiccan beliefs etc. I, like C_A am a 3* Gardnerian HP's with lineage. i started studying Wicca before the Internet was in most peoples homes. I had to search out books and teachers by writing letters to people and visiting contacts in person. I decided early on that there were 2 paths I wanted to follow - British Traditional Wicca and an African native religion. Although interested in Voodoo and Santeria, they were too far removed from my daily life and the country I live in, to be practiced in a way I felt they deserved.

I moved to Scotland in the early 90's and met a man named Charles Clark. I found he was Secretary to Gerald Gardner during the last 15 yrs years of Gerald's life. Charles was a 3* Gardnerian High priest, so my partner at the time, and I studied with him. A friend from England came up to visit and extended her stay for 3 yrs, so she could also study with Charles. Our whole lives were devoted to learning about Gard. Wicca or 'The WICA' as Gardner preferred to call it.

My partner and I had our own coven called Ayrshire Wica and we taught and Initiated others as well as having regular moots and rituals to mark the seasons. My partner/HP died suddenly and because of my grief I did not continue with the coven. My friend who had stayed for 3 yrs, then moved back to England and started her own coven which continues today. I am now the Elder of that coven and visit for the main rituals and Initiations of new members.

I am proud of my lineage as I had to work hard for it, much harder than many would have to now. I also notice that many young Wiccans are not willing to put in the time and work needed in order to obtain these degrees and carry on the line. The work put into our degrees is as detailed as any Vicar would have to study to become Anglican Clergy, or Imam would in order to teach the Koran in his own Temple. It is a vocation like and other Clergy position.

I remarried and decided to pursue the path of an African HP's. Again travel & 3 yrs of study were involved, including learning about the history of the peoples on the West coast of Africa, the slave trade and the Plantation Uprisings in Jamaica. I also learned a great deal about my own family history and the fact that my own father was an Obeah practitioner in Jamaica. Underneath the seemingly Christian facade of my birth parents, lay a family history of Black magic and rebellion. I finally obtained the title of 'Okomfo', High Priestess & Healer.

Not everyone is suited to become Clergy and therefore they have no need to study the various degrees needed, but at the same time I believe it is wrong and narrow sighted to dismiss the achievements of those who have chosen that path.

Blessings, x



Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 27, 2012, 06:32:56 PM
Greetings Skydancer. Scotland eh. Ever run into a fellow by the name of Wolfeage?
He wrote a few books on a version of Seax Wica he called Lybloc. I haven't talked to hi in a few years.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on April 28, 2012, 10:41:34 AM

I've never heard of him, sorry. Maybe he lives in a different area of Scotland to me, and I have not seen his books.

x
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 28, 2012, 11:29:38 AM
The one book I remember him writting was Lybac: AngloSaxon Witchcraft. Real name's Sean Percival.
At one time he was considered to be Ray Bucklands right hand in the UK.
 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on April 28, 2012, 06:06:53 PM
I know who you are talking about dm.  If I'm not mistaken he was with Uncle Bucky the same time he was in with Gerald.  Odd you don't know of him Skydancer.  Scotland is a relatively small country especially in the occult.

In any event, as has been said here repeatedly, lineaged wicca is damn near impossible since it can really only go back 70 or 80 years tops (and that's pushing it) and that is what maybe 3 generations possible at the most.

Welcome to TCC.  While I no longer practice wicca, I'm still a huge fan.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on April 28, 2012, 06:17:47 PM
I know who you are talking about dm.  If I'm not mistaken he was with Uncle Bucky the same time he was in with Gerald.  Odd you don't know of him Skydancer.  Scotland is a relatively small country especially in the occult.

In any event, as has been said here repeatedly, lineaged wicca is damn near impossible since it can really only go back 70 or 80 years tops (and that's pushing it) and that is what maybe 3 generations possible at the most.

Welcome to TCC.  While I no longer practice wicca, I'm still a huge fan.

Well looks like you will get to teach someone else new a few things then Khara, does it not?
 ;D

it's been a good week for that on TCC.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 28, 2012, 09:53:27 PM
I know who you are talking about dm.  If I'm not mistaken he was with Uncle Bucky the same time he was in with Gerald.  Odd you don't know of him Skydancer.  Scotland is a relatively small country especially in the occult.

In any event, as has been said here repeatedly, lineaged wicca is damn near impossible since it can really only go back 70 or 80 years tops (and that's pushing it) and that is what maybe 3 generations possible at the most.

Welcome to TCC.  While I no longer practice wicca, I'm still a huge fan.

Not sure if he ever met Gardner but he may have. Old enough to have met him. Now that I think about it, he didn't move to Northern Scotland until maybe 9 - 10 years ago.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on April 28, 2012, 11:47:19 PM
Skydancer, Do you think that because a person does not study for your various degrees that they
are to be dismissed because they do not follow the path as you do?

You feel these people are unable  to follow the path Of Wicca because they have not studied as
you have?
Do you feel you are better than most?

A solitary practitioner probably knows just about as much about Wicca as you do. The only thing
you have are rituals in a coven.

I find you quite insulting to most Wiccans who are not lineaged as you claim to be.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on April 29, 2012, 06:10:36 PM
Hi All,

Dark Magus, I probably do not move in the same circles as him. He sounds like a really interesting person with a lot of old knowledge. I bet he has some great stories to tell about the founding of Seax-Wica and time spent with Buckland. I asked a friend if they knew him and they think he is now a solitary and keeps away from the 'scene'. I have not studied Seax-Wica myself and although I live in Scotland I'm originally from Essex, England.

Marisol, I think you may have the wrong opinion of my beliefs and thoughts on who is what in Wicca. I know of many people uninitiated and without lineage who are extremely knowledgeable about the craft. For whatever reason they do not want  to be clergy, or to teach etc, which is fine. Their path is different to mine but equally as valid. They are not Gardnerian, Alexandrian or Dianic etc and would never claim to be any of those paths. If they did - then that is where the problem arises. It would be like myself reading a Seax-Wica book tomorrow and then telling people I am of that faith and as good as Dark Magus's friend Sean.

Anyone can follow the path of Wicca, the more the better. It is making false claims that I don't like, and if I am correct, most other people don't like liars, or people pretending to be what they are not. A solitary practitioner may know a great deal but they will not know about the inner teachings of Gard. Wica, as much is passed down orally or experienced in circle or other rituals.

Please show me where I have been insulting to you or other Wiccans?

I have said that I believe it is wrong to dismiss the achievements of others. I have not experienced it here on this forum but I have seen many fledgling pagans rubbish those who have studied  Wicca for many years, live the religion and fight for the cause to have Wicca recognised as a valuable and legitimate path to spiritual awakening. It must have been so hard for people like Gerald Gardner, Doreen Valiente, Ray Buckland and others back in the 50's, 60's & 70's, as the Witchcraft laws has only just been repealed and even reading Tarot cards in public was an arrestable offence. Admiration and recognition for their work and dedication is waning and ridiculed by many new to Wicca & paganism.

As for being better than anyone else. :-). no, far from it. If you knew me you would know I have never thought that. I am different - yes. I have knowledge in some subjects that others do not have - yes. But I am sure most people on here are blessed with many gifts that elude myself. Which is a good thing as we can all learn from each other.

Blessings, x


Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on April 29, 2012, 06:26:01 PM
Actually Sky, I never got the impression you insulted anyone or made any outrageous claims
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on April 29, 2012, 07:19:02 PM
Thank-you Skydancer forgive my assumptions.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 01, 2012, 06:08:38 AM
Please remember that there is more to the story than just the "fellowship" of a coven.

There IS, in fact, a LOT more passed along than a couple of songs from the Circle.

While a true and sincere dedicant can lead a very nice life as a solitary practitioner, the validation of the mysteries just isn't there in 100 cases out of 101...they will never get the "full-tilt-boogie" of Wicca without.

Not being "judgemental", here...just calling it the way it is.  You might not want to or like to hear it, but it is unequivocally true.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 01, 2012, 06:50:28 AM
Y'all can pass this back and forth until you are blue in the face but you aren't going to have any lineaged wiccans for another 100 to 150 years.  It hasn't been around long enough yet.

Obviously people need to look the word up because I think a lot just don't know what it means.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 01, 2012, 07:04:29 AM
Lineaged, in the case of Wicca, is a direct route to the originators' covens.  One can be "lineaged" in one leap.  The first coven I entered was two.

Lineaged, as it pertains to witchcraft, is an entirely different issue.  I do not know how many generations before my grandmother there are.  In that regard, then, I am lineaged to at least the second generation.

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 01, 2012, 07:39:27 AM
Lineaged, in the case of Wicca, is a direct route to the originators' covens.  One can be "lineaged" in one leap.  The first coven I entered was two.

Lineaged, as it pertains to witchcraft, is an entirely different issue.  I do not know how many generations before my grandmother there are.  In that regard, then, I am lineaged to at least the second generation.

Yeah, well I guess one could stretch the definition to include non-relatives in regards to something instead of a traceable bloodline but in all honesty, it's a huge stretch and one which I think is probably used to make wicca looka lot older than it actually is.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 01, 2012, 09:03:32 AM
You know me...I am not one of those "bunnies" who insist on Wicca being "thousands of years old" and "predating Christianity"...no use at ALL for the whole "Burning Times" nonsense.  It hasn't got anything to do with "age".

If you count "the 1950's" as a beginning and I got there in 1977, Wicca was about twenty years old.  BUT...The coven I was init into was only a second hiving.   THEREIN lies the "lineage".


Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 01, 2012, 10:19:18 AM
You know me...I am not one of those "bunnies" who insist on Wicca being "thousands of years old" and "predating Christianity"...no use at ALL for the whole "Burning Times" nonsense.  It hasn't got anything to do with "age".

If you count "the 1950's" as a beginning and I got there in 1977, Wicca was about twenty years old.  BUT...The coven I was init into was only a second hiving.   THEREIN lies the "lineage".

It's a stretch but I'll give it too you  ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on May 02, 2012, 04:37:36 PM
I believe a lot of people have a problem with the term 'Lineage' as it applies to Wicca or any faith that requires grades and initiations. Reiki has a similar form of lineage leading back to its creator. 10+ Reiki initiations could take place in one day. The teacher initiates person 1, person 1 initiates person3, person 3 initiates person 4, etc, etc.

It is the same for Gardnerians. The covens HP will initiate the female members and the HP's will initiate the men. As a HP's if I initiate a man to 2nd degree, he could (at the same meeting) initiate a female into her 1st degree. It has nothing to do with age or 'blood' family line. What C_A says is correct within Gardnerian Wica.

The initiation rituals and what happens soon after changes you mentally & spiritually. There is a transference of energy, and oral knowledge that one cannot get from books or as a solitary practitioner. As I stated before it is not a path that suits everyone. I have friends in the Golden Dawn - who themselves have their own rituals and grades of initiation. As each stage is passed there is a notable change in the adept. The changes are in thoughts, physical actions, bodily reactions, way of relating to others and a general attitude to life in general.

Each stage is beautiful for the initiate and those present at the ritual. The energy all around is sparkling and in some cases can be seen. It's Magickal!!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on May 03, 2012, 01:33:30 AM
Charles Leland , wrote in his book about the Streghera that practice in the northern regions of Italy when he visited there in 1899 and how they followed in the teach of their elders. Seem to me they surpass Gardner and other of his generation . There are most likely several traditions that have been passed down in the family line that are keep quite about .
 
There could well be isolate spot on the world where for many generations have passed down tradition that the people that practice them do not consider it witchcraft .
 
Take those that follow Native American paths , those that were taught by Native are following a Lineaged those has continue to be practice for hundred of years and possible thousands. Now that lineaged .
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 03, 2012, 08:43:55 AM
I believe a lot of people have a problem with the term 'Lineage' as it applies to Wicca or any faith that requires grades and initiations. Reiki has a similar form of lineage leading back to its creator. 10+ Reiki initiations could take place in one day. The teacher initiates person 1, person 1 initiates person3, person 3 initiates person 4, etc, etc.

It is the same for Gardnerians. The covens HP will initiate the female members and the HP's will initiate the men. As a HP's if I initiate a man to 2nd degree, he could (at the same meeting) initiate a female into her 1st degree. It has nothing to do with age or 'blood' family line. What C_A says is correct within Gardnerian Wica.

The initiation rituals and what happens soon after changes you mentally & spiritually. There is a transference of energy, and oral knowledge that one cannot get from books or as a solitary practitioner. As I stated before it is not a path that suits everyone. I have friends in the Golden Dawn - who themselves have their own rituals and grades of initiation. As each stage is passed there is a notable change in the adept. The changes are in thoughts, physical actions, bodily reactions, way of relating to others and a general attitude to life in general.

Each stage is beautiful for the initiate and those present at the ritual. The energy all around is sparkling and in some cases can be seen. It's Magickal!!

Yeah, well you can say this over and over and over and over, it does not change the fact that the definition of the word as shown in multiple dictionaries has zero to do with the definition you are giving it here.

But please feel free to talk down to me some more. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 03, 2012, 08:49:21 AM
It's all semantics. Normally when people talk about Lineage, they are referring to a kinship. A line drawn from one relative to another. The family tree if you will.
But there are other uses for the word as well. Even so, you can still demonstrate that connection via a tree.
Within wicca, to be lineaged, you must be able to find your branch that connects you with Gardner and his coven.
 
If you have not been initiated by a Gardnarian wiccan than very simply, your not on that tree! You might be a solitary practitioner, but you are not "lineaged" is this context of the word.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 03, 2012, 08:54:01 AM
You too really?

Does everyone think I'm just too fvcking stupid to understand. 

I have mentioned I attained my 3rd degree in the 80's how many fvcking times?

jesus fvcking christ, I understand what they are saying, what I am saying is they need to find a different word for it.  It gives the wrong impression.  It's using words like that which makes people believe wicca is some ancient religion.

It isn't.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 03, 2012, 10:32:52 AM
You too really?

Does everyone think I'm just too fvcking stupid to understand. 

I have mentioned I attained my 3rd degree in the 80's how many fvcking times?

jesus fvcking christ, I understand what they are saying, what I am saying is they need to find a different word for it.  It gives the wrong impression.  It's using words like that which makes people believe wicca is some ancient religion.

It isn't.

I GET the fact that YOU "get it".   

I GET the fact that it does carry, (especially when misused), a sense of mis-information.

And I think it annoys YOU every bit as much as it does ME...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 03, 2012, 10:39:26 AM
Charles Leland , wrote in his book about the Streghera that practice in the northern regions of Italy when he visited there in 1899 and how they followed in the teach of their elders. Seem to me they surpass Gardner and other of his generation . There are most likely several traditions that have been passed down in the family line that are keep quite about .

Leland, like Murray, has been very soundly discredited academically.  He's a very good writer for his era, but he should have stuck with a different calling.

AS one of Italian heritage...(and having been to the "paese" or town where my family comes from...there are still MANY people related to me there.), I can tell you that Leland was off by MANY miles in the "stuff" he poertrayed as "true".  In fact, what he put forth was a mixture of MANY beliefs as well as...well...BS, fed to him by people willing to tell him "what he wanted to hear" for L50 each.

An entire "tradition" was built on his work.  All I can say to that is, a "house built on sand" and all that...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 03, 2012, 01:59:14 PM
You too really?

Does everyone think I'm just too fvcking stupid to understand. 

I have mentioned I attained my 3rd degree in the 80's how many fvcking times?

jesus fvcking christ, I understand what they are saying, what I am saying is they need to find a different word for it.  It gives the wrong impression.  It's using words like that which makes people believe wicca is some ancient religion.

It isn't.

I wasn't actually talking to anyone in particular, just making a comment.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 03, 2012, 02:05:21 PM

I wasn't actually talking to anyone in particular, just making a comment.

I'm sorry this topic has given me head wall syndrome, not to mention the condescending way some people have posted in this thread.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on May 03, 2012, 03:00:18 PM
Not to ruffle any feathers, but is the Pagan religion considered as "new" as everyone says Wicca is? I look at it this way, the term "Wicca" may be Gardnerian but the religion or form of religion has been around since the dawn of time. What were the ancient Greeks following as a religion if not Wiccan or Pagan? I'm not trying to make anyone bang their head or get irritated, I just want some knowledge because I have always gotten the impression that Wicca has centuries old. The way I read it in a book (and it's been a while and I don't remember the title) was that Wicca was around and almost became extinct until Gardner created the "modern Wicca". Again, you all have been doing this longer than I and therefore have more knowledge, so I am deferring to the experts (as it were).

My impression of the whole lineaged thing is that it is someone that can trace their family history along Wicca......(don't shoot me) Harry Potter could TRACE how many family members were wizards, as could Ron and Draco. Hermione (sp?) was a bit of an odd duck in that both of her parents were muggles. Same thing with the Charmed show, they could LITERALLY trace the family line back to the original Wiccan: Melinda Warren. Again, this is a new concept to me, I mean I can trace EXACTLY how I am related to Princes William and Harry and their mother, but as far as I know I am the only Wiccan in my family tree. But, we are missing some links and I have a ton of cousins and with most of my tree being in the South, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those branches were in the broom closet. Supposedly I am a descendent of Pocahontas, but it seems that name was popular in those days, so it may not be the same one that saved John Smith.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 03, 2012, 03:48:50 PM
You are confusing witchcraft with Wicca. Wicca is loosely based on witchcraft but the beliefs, rules and ideals are not the same. So Wicca is witchcraft but witchcraft is not Wicca.

As for paganism there have been various forms of it around for centuries. 

The early christians used many of the pagan holidays and beliefs in order to convert more pagans to christianity. I mean we all know jesus wasn't born in the winter, that satan is based on the horned god and most demons based on the giants and other "mythical" monsters and demi-gods.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 03, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Not to ruffle any feathers, but is the Pagan religion considered as "new" as everyone says Wicca is? I look at it this way, the term "Wicca" may be Gardnerian but the religion or form of religion has been around since the dawn of time. What were the ancient Greeks following as a religion if not Wiccan or Pagan? I'm not trying to make anyone bang their head or get irritated, I just want some knowledge because I have always gotten the impression that Wicca has centuries old. The way I read it in a book (and it's been a while and I don't remember the title) was that Wicca was around and almost became extinct until Gardner created the "modern Wicca". Again, you all have been doing this longer than I and therefore have more knowledge, so I am deferring to the experts (as it were).

And to be honest, I think most people get confused about just what it is they are following.
Pagans don't actually have a religion. Paganism is a system of beliefs held by individuals each to his own on placing importance or indifference to any particular aspect. IE: My path is Animism. It's the precursor to Shamanism and dates back thousands of years. But I acknowledge that the way I view it has little or nothing to how it has been viewed over the centuries.
 
The term Wica means wise. I really don't remember if it's Gaelic or Norse, but it's an old term. Numerous folk beliefs have existed in every region of the world with different names for gods and goddesses. Different practises, different holidays, etc. And all of these beliefs are deemed pagan.
Back in about 1952 Gerald Gardener (or at least he's been credited for it) brought together a number of various pagan beliefs and some idea's from Crowley and others and formalized it into a defined religion. Borrowing on the word wica, he named his religion wicca.
So no, Wicca is not thousands of years old, only about 60 years.
 
As to what people call paganism today......take the druid's. Very little was written about the druids in there own time. How they worshiped, what they worshiped, etc. Based on various ruins, writtings of Julius Ceaser (the guy that did his best to wipe them off the planet) and such, there are a number of opinions about them but no hard fact. Those that call themselves druids today are basing what they do strictly on modern interpretation.
So, when we are talking about witches and druids and such, we should really qualify that with Neo-Paganism.
Because, lets face it, Hindu's Buddhists etc are pagans too. One of the definitions of a pagan that I heard along time ago was...anyone who does not follow or accept the God of Abraham.
 
When it comes to the term "lineaged wiccan" all that can really mean is that you can trace a connection back to 1952. But to be a hereditary witch, to me, has far more significance as you have a family history that might go back hundreds of years.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on May 03, 2012, 10:34:46 PM
Be lineaged/don't be lineaged It doesn't matter to me. But I see that it does cause some to think
they are superior to others. I believe my assumptions were true.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on May 03, 2012, 11:35:02 PM
In this I will give my total support to Khara  , I will uses this ..... Hereditary descendants .... those that keep the faith.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 04, 2012, 06:02:57 AM
In this I will give my total support to Khara  , I will uses this ..... Hereditary descendants .... those that keep the faith.

I think that is one of the best ways I've heard it put og thank you!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 04, 2012, 08:32:36 AM
You are confusing witchcraft with Wicca. Wicca is loosely based on witchcraft but the beliefs, rules and ideals are not the same. So Wicca is witchcraft but witchcraft is not Wicca.

As for paganism there have been various forms of it around for centuries. 

The early christians used many of the pagan holidays and beliefs in order to convert more pagans to christianity. I mean we all know jesus wasn't born in the winter, that satan is based on the horned god and most demons based on the giants and other "mythical" monsters and demi-gods.

September, 4 b.c.
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/568/When-Was-Jesus-Born.htm (http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/568/When-Was-Jesus-Born.htm)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 04, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
Be lineaged/don't be lineaged It doesn't matter to me. But I see that it does cause some to think
they are superior to others. I believe my assumptions were true.

And you're right.  It does.  But then...what doesn't?

I don't believe it makes me superior, but I DO believe that I posess knowledge that those who, for whateer reason, haven't trod that path.  Do the G-ds think I'm any "better"?  No, I don't think they do.  I know of some people who ARE in my position that are probably  looked on in a WORSE light by them than others who HAVEN'T that knowledge, but are more devout.  "Higher standard"and all that.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 04, 2012, 10:28:23 AM
You are confusing witchcraft with Wicca. Wicca is loosely based on witchcraft but the beliefs, rules and ideals are not the same. So Wicca is witchcraft but witchcraft is not Wicca.

As for paganism there have been various forms of it around for centuries. 

The early christians used many of the pagan holidays and beliefs in order to convert more pagans to christianity. I mean we all know jesus wasn't born in the winter, that satan is based on the horned god and most demons based on the giants and other "mythical" monsters and demi-gods.

^^^DIS^^^
Plus a THOUSAND.

Been saying JUST THIS for...well...a L O N G time around here.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on May 04, 2012, 10:29:33 AM
If you have not been initiated by a Gardnarian wiccan than very simply, your not on that tree! You might be a solitary practitioner, but you are not "lineaged" is this context of the word.


AND....

Quote from: dark magus
When it comes to the term "lineaged wiccan" all that can really mean is that you can trace a connection back to 1952. But to be a hereditary witch, to me, has far more significance as you have a family history that might go back hundreds of years

*NAILED*
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on May 04, 2012, 11:12:11 AM
According to the English dictionaries I have read, many are online), Lineage means:

'Direct descendant from ancestor or pedigree.'

Latin version: 'Linea', which means 'line.'

According to 'Data Lineage' it means 'Where it travels through the enterprise'.

I do need to ask why members here get so angry over semantics? I am just describing the way things are in Gardnerian Wica and I fully understand that family lineage is quite different. Would you be happier if I said 'Gardnerian Line'?

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 04, 2012, 12:18:07 PM
Quote
Lineage (anthropology) or kinship, descent group that can demonstrate their common descent from an apical ancestor or a direct line of decent from an ancestor.

Lineage (evolution), group composed of species, taxa, or individuals related by descent from a common ancestor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage)

Quote
lin·e·age1    /ˈlɪniɪdʒ/ [lin-ee-ij] noun
1. lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or extraction: She could trace her lineage to the early Pilgrims.
2. the line of descendants of a particular ancestor; family; race.

Origin:
1275–1325; line(al) + -age; replacing Middle English linage  < Anglo-French; Old French lignage  < Vulgar Latin *līneāticum.  See line1 , -age
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lineage)

Quote
Definition of LINEAGE
1a : descent in a line from a common progenitor b : derivation
2: a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; especially : such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lineage (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lineage)

Quote
1.
a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lineage (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lineage)

Ok so we can all see where you might be a bit misinformed, especially on the root word.

I was willing to step back and let things be, however, you have made 6 posts now, all in this thread and all with a know it all I'm better than you underlying attitude which I was again willing to let slide, however, you last snarky little post just needed addressing.

So here we go.

I do not believe a single word you've written.  You contradict yourself thruout, you claim to be a 3rd degree HP with Gardnerian Wicca and in the same post you claim to be a Okomfo in Obeah.  Which is it?

You claim to have studied with Charles Clark in the 90's, yet the only references I can find regarding a Charles Clark are a single line on Wiki and in that one link you provided, which I am also begining to think you copied your story from almost word for word.  One would think the man who started the first Gardnerian Wiccan Coven in Scotlad would rate at least a paragraph somewhere.  Yet there is nothing.

So I'm calling troll.  Granted a good researching troll, but a troll nonetheless.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on May 04, 2012, 04:13:49 PM
As I said earlier I think you feel you are superior To everyone else. I don't believe you have all of these degrees you claim to have. I think you did alittle research To make your self look good. I know your are a fake, we  have empaths here, so ya better run for the hills and study a bit
more.  I would say everything you have said so far is a lie. You said earlier we do not tolerate
liars. There is a word you should learn: limpid meaning marked by transparency.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on May 04, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
At least this one went under our radar longer than some of the others................
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on May 04, 2012, 07:10:03 PM

 My work and Degrees are known and acknowledged by those who matter. I worked hard for them, and yes, I am proud of my achievements. I am on my way to 60yrs old and have had a very diverse, unusual, and exciting life. I am from an Afro-Caribbean background, hence my interest in Obeah and similar Afro-Caribbean religions.

No one can make you feel inferior unless you allow them to & this was not my intention. I came to this forum to share in the same way I go to other forums. This is the first time I have experienced such vitriol - why?

I also never quoted that Charles started the first Gardnerian coven in Scotland. Scotland may have a small population but we are very wide spread. I am on the East coast, not far from Glasgow. There is no way it is possible to know every Wiccan in Scotland personally.

Whether you believe I have any qualifications or experience is quite irrelevant, as they are documented & vouched for by other Gardnerians and official bodies. I have never said I am better than you, I don't even know you and you obviously know nothing about me.

There are some nice, good people here and I wish them all well. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on May 04, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
I don't know......there just seems to be something about you that rubs me wrong and I can't place my finger on it. There's a irritation but I can't figure out exactly what it is. I am sure that it will come to light soon. I am usually VERY good at reading people and knowing who to avoid ad I haven't had my "spider sense" go crazy like this in a while. I'm SURE that Khara, DM, or even marisol will say that it is my troll radar becoming focused, but I just don't KNOW. It's almost like you INSIST on rubbing it in that you have so many degrees and that we should just take your word for it. That kind of protesting certainly gives a LOT of credence to the troll theory. Albeit, you do seem to be a very knowledgeable troll and not the kind we've had recently that tend to contradict themselves time after time. I just can't put my finger on it and it's bugging the hell out of me!

As far as the OP, again I defer to those with more knowledge than I. As a solitary, yes I probably have missed a lot but, I was initiated on a VERY powerful day and I remember the feeling of thousands welcoming me into the Craft. I have had experiences with other solitarys and understand the kinship that can be there. But at the same time, I am a bit independent (strange for a Pisces, huh?).
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 04, 2012, 09:39:06 PM
Frankly, Not every new person that joins the site is a troll. That said, I don't "feel" any deceit in Skydancers posts. So, either it's truth or he knows how to shield. I haven't really seen anything to take offense to, so I'll go with with truth until proven wrong.
But hey, it's the internet!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Skydancer on May 04, 2012, 10:43:15 PM
I am a woman. Check out this site:

http://www.thewica.co.uk

Look for the family tree and also look for Charles Clark. On the family tree I am listed under Ayrshire Wica as Iona - my birth name. Google me as Lady Skydancer or Iona Winton - my real name. Look at my facebook page to see what I'm like & groups I belong to.

Its all out there if you look. The reason I state my credentials when first posting is that I have always been asked for them before. I am sorry I did that here. Alyceavary, With me your 'trolldar' is off balance. I do not like people who troll and this is the first time I have ever been accused of it. It looks as if I have come to the wrong site to share, but I have no regrets. It will teach me to stay where I am known trusted & loved in the future. Dark Magus - I do like you for , and thank you for your support during my short stay.

May you all be Blessed,

x
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: dark magus on May 05, 2012, 12:38:51 AM
Oops, I usually check peoples profiles, my apologies.
 
Hopefully you'll have another look at our little group here before you decide to depart.
From reading other threads you might see that we have had a few actual trolls pop up recently and every one is a tad "gun shy" as a result.
 
I would hope that we might learn from this and not start shooting every new member just because they post some information about themselves.
 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on May 05, 2012, 07:21:10 AM
Well I did check out the profile and the website and I love how responses made to my comments were misconstrued.

I find it extremely telling that THIS is the only thread you have bothered to post in and in a manner which more than one has found insulting.

Your latest post contradicts your earlier ones and I guess you're claiming ownership to the website as your story is the same as the one there.

Maybe if you had bothered to post elsewhere or participated in any thread other than this one and in this one simply telling us how much better and more knowledgable you are than us, then I might be more inclined to believe you.

I have a hard time with anyone who's first posts are telling us how wonderful they are while chastising us at the same time. Sorry, I haven't changed my opinion.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on May 05, 2012, 10:43:19 PM

No one can make you feel inferior unless you allow them to & this was not my intention. I came to this forum to share in the same way I go to other forums. This is the first time I have experienced such vitriol - why?

That's a phrase I have heard too many times from a certain source to ignore its significance. I too think you're a troll and I am pretty certain you've come from the same lineage as all the other trolls we've had here lately.


I also never quoted that Charles started the first Gardnerian coven in Scotland. Scotland may have a small population but we are very wide spread. I am on the East coast, not far from Glasgow. There is no way it is possible to know every Wiccan in Scotland personally.

You came straight onto a controversial thread and began attacking the people who had routed a troll - did you expect to make yourself popular and appear non confrontational by doing that?

Most new posters unless they are trolls, we have noted, takea bit of time to get to know people a little before going ahead and pointing out the errors of all their ways.


Whether you believe I have any qualifications or experience is quite irrelevant, as they are documented & vouched for by other Gardnerians and official bodies. I have never said I am better than you, I don't even know you and you obviously know nothing about me.

There are some nice, good people here and I wish them all well.

Yes so do we wish them well. It's why we're being hyper-vigilant about posts like this.

I'm with Khara. You're still smelling as fishy as three day old salmon to me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on May 10, 2012, 11:53:10 AM
That might be me actually.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on May 11, 2012, 05:38:31 AM
That might be me actually.

Nah. You smell of fungally infested socks, cigarette ash, vodka and Chicken Tikka.

But there's nothing fishy about you.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on May 16, 2012, 12:38:05 AM
You are welcome Khara , Several years ago a very old friend died  , her name was Stormdancer Women ; all the knowlegde she had was lost because no member of her family wanted to hear about it . They all had a new religion , money. i wish she had left all her books to me.
Have any of you made a will to who will get the knowledge that you have learned or were taugh?.
To bad there is not a Witchcraft libary that those that have not familt to leave there BOS too.
 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Michelle on July 08, 2012, 07:51:02 PM
Wow! I'd been wondering who'd be next after everyone was done with Blue. I suppose it shall be my turn one day.

Hoorah for mob rule.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on July 08, 2012, 09:41:46 PM
Got your back Babe ............... Try Me . :-p
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Khara on July 09, 2012, 06:47:36 AM
On second thought.....  it just isn't worth it.

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 12:32:32 PM
I've NEVER heard a lineaged witch or Wiccan say that others "don't count".  That would be seen as extremely rude behavior in the BTW trads I've seen.  Lineaged Witches and Wiccans do however take serious issue with people who mislabel themselves.  There are very valid reasons for requesting lineage from witches who claim a certain title as it enables oathbound material to be disccussed and identifies others as "family" - or not.

I'm not on a high horse here.  I had a false BTW initiation and had to accept that I am not Wiccan.  This was a terrible blow, but it was reality.  So now I am a BTW Dedicant working hard to earn the title.

I will also say that some lineaged people could uses a little courtesy.  Plenty of non lineaged, non BTW's are very competent witches who should be respected.  They've simply had different training.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 29, 2012, 01:40:02 PM
Anyone got an idea what the differences are between BTW and  Gardnerian are?  I am asking cause I haven't a clue.  I used to belong to a good BTW seeker's board but lost that connection a long time ago when I lost my yahoo account due to non activity.  I have had a year of study under a Gardnerian coven but never initiated.  I was almost done with my first year of study when I lost my connection to that group due to reasons not associated with the coven in anyway or anything I learned.

I've heard more than one Gardnerian say if you've not been initiated you shouldn't really being calling yourself Wiccan.  Pretty tough for a solitary practitioner to initiate themselves so they clearly don't think that the uninitiated are real Wiccans.  Seems to me that counts...  :-\
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 02:04:29 PM
MM!  Gardnerians are a tradition within BTW, or British Traditional Wicca.  Other BTW groups include Alexandrians, Mohsians., some Blue Star lines and (I think) 1734.  Also Central Valley Wicca.  All members can trace their lineage back to Gerald Gardner.  Wait a minute - the CVW's roots are a bit mysterious but they are accepted as bona fide BTW.  Maybe someone more senior could explain.

The use of the word Wicca by non BTW's is VERY controversial to say the least.  Many would prefer that non BTW witches who are influenced by Wicca call themselves Neowiccan.  Or Eclectic Pagan Witch.  Many BTW's are adamant about this, but just as many feel that the genie is so far out of the bottle (thank you Scott Cunningham), and the BTW trads so thoroughly oathed and vetted anyway, that it's a moot point.  Personally, I call myself a Neowiccan until , and assuming, I receive an initiation from a proper BTW HPS, according to THEIR requirements.

Any BTW's feel free to correct me on my statements here.

Well Met and good fortune to you all.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on July 29, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
The use of the word Wicca by non BTW's is VERY controversial to say the least.  Many would prefer that non BTW witches who are influenced by Wicca call themselves Neowiccan.  Or Eclectic Pagan Witch.

``These are MY cookies, and I don't want to share. Get your own cookies!''

You don't need to be lineaged to be a Wiccan, all you need is to follow the Rede (or at least acknowledge it and understand that there might consequences if you don't) as best you can.

The cookies were meant for all of us to share and enjoy... not just an elect few... not just the "good girls and boys" who go to church on sunday (or to a circle gathering respectively).
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 04:53:06 PM
Oh dear.  No, it is not selfishness.  There are very valid reasons and no one wants to diminish others, just to use accurate titles. Would a BTW initiate like to jump in here?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 29, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
I refer to myself as Wiccan but I've never been initiated.  Persoanally I think SC was aweful fluffy.   :-p
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 09:25:48 PM
Sorry?  Who or what is SC?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 29, 2012, 09:58:04 PM
Scott Cunningham

If you have any info you could pass on to me about BTW covens here in the states, I would be greatful for the information.  Feel free to pm me with it if you like.  I know the seeker board that I used to belong to wasn't easily findable.  If I recall I was referred to them by a member who used to post here.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 10:12:16 PM
Oh!!  Scott was a doorway to many and IMHO was the best and worst thing that ever happened to the Craft.  The best being that he made the Craft accessible and the worst that he made the Craft accessible.That being said his books are lovely IF you don't stop there and IF you substitute "self dedication" for "self initiation".

For more info on BTW in the states contact amberandjet.  They are extremely ethical, dedicated BTW Elders who keep a list where they try to hook up dedicated Seekers with lineaged  BTW teachers and covens who are accepting new students around the world.  It may take some time and there may be some travel depending on where you live.  Good luck.  Just reading their forum archives is a better education than any books out there, btw.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 29, 2012, 10:14:05 PM
Lucifer, I know you're waiting for a reply.  It will take a while to formulate one, please don't think I'm ignoring you.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on July 29, 2012, 10:20:46 PM
The whole "real Wiccan" vs not really is annoying. I respect those like C_A that are lineaged and have the degrees and documentation to prove it. HOWEVER, I think it is really divisive to say that I cannot say I am Wiccan because I never met Gardner or went through his program. It's the same as Catholics saying someone isn't Christian because they haven't went to mass or been baptized. Whatever. I thought that the word Wicca meant wise one. Instead of fighting each other on who is the "true Wiccan" or knows the most, maybe we should be coming together since all the other religions are trying to divide us.

Just a thought.......now I'll leave this thread since I took my rites from a solitary practitioner.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 30, 2012, 12:42:00 AM
Aly,

Try to see it from their pov.  For those that see it that way, that is what they were taught.  You ever seen C_ A go off on someone that said Wicca could be whatever you wanted it to be?? You might be surprised at what his opinion is on the whole thing.  Being a3rd degree Gardnarian and possibly a 3rd degree, I think, Alexandrian I am sure he has a rigid stance on the matter.

In all fairness serafina hassn't really said  that. C_A I know would totally disgree on a person being able to initiate themselves.  He might use one of SC's books as tp if he ran out.  :-p

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 30, 2012, 01:03:10 AM
 I would highly encourage anyone who can,  attend an open circle ritual of a coven. You will see how slightly different their rituals are than say the ones that SC describes doing in his books are and these are the differences that can show you.  Their oathbound material is never given away to the public.  It's information that solitary people don't have.  They do have an advantage over some of us.  Just the info alone that they are taught on spellcasting puts them in a different class.  If you ever get the chance for studying with a coven, take it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on July 30, 2012, 07:06:08 AM
maybe we should be coming together since all the other religions are trying to divide us.

Just a thought.......now I'll leave this thread since I took my rites from a solitary practitioner.
off-topic, maybe, but -

Discussion and learning tend to take place more easily with someone whom you do not completely agree with... Think about it.

Bob says, "I love donuts."
John says, "I also love donuts."
-end of discussion (I guess you could expand it out a little further to favorite types, why you like donuts, but that's still only another couple of minutes)

... there is much more to be learned from someone who's opinion you do not share, because they can give provide you with an insightful new outlook if you let them, and in the same respect you can also give them insights if they let you. So lets all get together and figure this thing out!

Blessed Be
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on July 30, 2012, 12:59:09 PM
EBS, I understand the viewpoint, I just disagree on the whole argument that is seeming to be popping up (and not by C_A.....) that lineaged are sooo much better than non-lineaged and that those of us who don't have a way to get degrees or might choose not to are considered less than those that have. Y'know, "I have studied under Gardner and you haven't so it is insulting that you think you are Wiccan" or that think those of us who study on our own (by choice or due to circumstance) are not equal in the eyes of the Goddess.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on July 30, 2012, 01:35:32 PM
I'm not even a Wiccan so I have hesitated to post anything here. But Aly has brought up a very salient point.

Surely the whole point of choosing a Gnostic path for oneself is because you have rejected the notion that you need an intermediary, an interpreter, someone on a higher spiritual plane than you  to tell you how and when and where to connect with your deities. Because you're somehow not worthy of direct communion.

It sure as shit it why I was drawn to paganism.

If Wicca is to go the way of the Catholic Church, the Pentecostals, all the Christian,Jewish, Islamic pastor/rabbi/mullah led  meeting houses -  and tell the supplicants that they have not the wherewithal to commune with the gods without guidance, hierarchies and theological markers set out by another, wiser, more spiritually evolved soul; if it is to be telling you precisely where you may and may not tread on this path - well then you might as well retire to a nunnery and be done with it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 30, 2012, 03:30:08 PM
Aly, I think you would find that most solitaries feel the same as you do.  Hell there is more than one branch of Wicca that I personally don't feel should be calling themselves Wiccan.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 30, 2012, 04:28:20 PM
Whoa, there are some REAL misunderstandings here.  BTW's do not believe any intercession is needed to speak to the gods!  And they absolutely support solitaries, eclectics, and ANYONE who feels called in service to the Goddess, or indeed any deity.  Many of you really have them pegged wrong.  I am very sorry there are so many bad feelings, I have never heard a BTW put down another Path, or claim theirs is the "one and only way" to worship the gods.  The only problem to some, but not all British Traditionals is the use of the word Wicca rather than another term to describe non BTW practices.

Lucifer, thank you so much for acknowleding that we can grow from healthy debate.  And I reiterate it was a very nasty blow to me to find out my "generic BTW initiation" was bogus, though the gods may see it differently since I had reverent intent.  In fact it really, really sucks.  But I accept that I have to receive a Gardnerian initiation and be introduced specifically to the Gard mysteries to be Wiccan.(Gardnerian in my case).  I uns[derstand disagreement, but fell free to ask questions so at least you aren't laboring under false info about BTW beliefs.

A Blessed Harvest and Peace to you all.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on July 30, 2012, 05:16:59 PM
The only problem to some, but not all British Traditionals is the use of the word Wicca rather than another term to describe non BTW practices.
That's fine, and let them keep having a problem with it, because we're (me at least) probably never going to adhere to line of thinking and say we're "neoWiccan", seeing as that all the originals are probably dead anyway. If Gardner himself came back from the dead and said "You can't call yourself Wiccan!?" then I might listen (still, probably not).

Anyway, all things that live change and evolve, such is the nature of life. By proxy also, all things which humans (which are alive) use will also change and evolve (Wicca is one of those things). The only way to stop an entity from changing is to kill it and pump it full of preservatives, then make sure that humans never touch it again. All that is to say, that the argument that "I don't want what I believe in to change or be any different than it is now" is intrinsically flawed. It only makes sense to allow change to occur (because you couldn't stop it even if you wanted to) and adapt your mind to understand why the changes took place and to accept them...

Wicca may not be exactly what it was when it started, but then neither is the world and neither are it's practicioners (unless Zombie-Gardner walks among us!?). The tired idea that the old definition of Wicca (the BTW initiate-only view) needs to go away and stay away.

I'm here, I'm Wiccan, get used to it!

Blessed Be
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 30, 2012, 05:27:54 PM
(chuckle) you've got it, Lucifer.  I only ask that people verify from a BTW practitioner when they hear what mean, nasty elitist pooh pooh heads those rotten BTW"s are.  MOST are not.  (:
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 30, 2012, 07:57:03 PM
serafina, I don't recall any BTW saying that solitaries can't refer to themselves as Wiccan.  My experience has been with Gardnerians or Alexandrians who say that.  I must admit that we haven't had many here that follow BTW.  I am glad you joined.  I look forward to your continued participation.

I have zero ill will against anyone who follows a Wicca based path.  I am not bothered in the least by those that say I really shouldn't call myself Wiccan, although I am not sure what would be a better term that could be used.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 30, 2012, 08:25:46 PM
MM Earthbound Spirit, the attitude of many BTW's is that although they don't like the use of the term Wiccan by people who cannot trace their lineage back to the New Forest Coven, the toothpaste's way out of the tube, genie's out of the bottle, and it just isn't worth the PR hit.  Besides, the various Trads within BTW are SO thorough about vetting and vouching people, and the oaths are so binding there is little or no danger of their core practices being diluted.  It just isn't worth

There is also a very vocal cadre within who will fight the good fight for the sole use of the label "Wicca" FOREVER.  They trained very hard  for the initiation (and it is very demanding work) and they By Goddess want it.  In their defense, Wicca IS the priesthood of a very specific pair of deities, and you are given a very specific, absolutely oathbound initiation into  the Mysteries of the Wica.

Now, if you wish to call yourself Wiccan the worst that can happen is (maybe) some dirty looks and (maybe) a serious talking to from a BTW at a multi trad gathering.  Up to you.  However, out of respect, some people voluntarily call themselves Witches, Pagan Eclectic Witches Or just of the Craft instead of Wiccan.  And some trads such as the former Isian Wiccan Trad are now Isian Witchcraft.  Even Feminist Dianics have dropped the Wicca title.  Personally I prefer Neowiccan or just plain Craft.

So, there you go.  Out on the table to the best of my knowledge.  I will try to answer any questions  if they come up, or refer you to an initiate if need be.

Meanwhile,enjoy the Harvest Festival of your choice!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on July 31, 2012, 07:49:37 AM
This is just MPO for what it's worth. No offense is meant towards anyone, so I hope it is not taken to be.

I'm not Wiccan, and after reading this thread, I'm not sure I could be. I do not believe in exclusivity in the scope of spirituality in anyform, even if it's only a a name that is exclusive. Hence why the Christian beliefs I was forced into, never sat right with me.

The sun, moon, and stars are not exclusive to anyone. The Earth we dwell upon and the elements that surround us are not exclusive to anyone. The gods and goddesses of ages long past--patiently waiting to be called upon again--are not exclusive to anyone. They reach out to all with open arms, ready to take anyone within their embrace who seek them. Nature, itself, is not exclusive to anyone. In fact...if you think about it, there is no property exclusive to us really. One day we will all pass from this world into the next. When that happens, our possessions are no longer our own. They merely become things we left behind and those we left behind decide what is to be done with them.

This is not to say that I think Wicca is bad. I do not think Wicca is bad. I believe there are many aspects within Wicca that feel natural when communing with one's deity/ies. The circle is one of them. A circle is infinite, it shows the connection between all things, and it shows how whatever you put out, eventually comes back to you. A circle in many ways also shows balance, for no matter what point of a circle you focus on, there is another point, directly opposite of it.

I also favor the concept of god and goddess, lord and lady. I may believe there are many gods and goddesses, but I do believe their are two main deities that govern and watch over all.

As I said, this is just my opinion and was not meant to offend anyone, so I hope it has not done so.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on July 31, 2012, 08:40:15 AM
This is just MPO for what it's worth. No offense is meant towards anyone, so I hope it is not taken to be.

I'm not Wiccan, and after reading this thread, I'm not sure I could be. I do not believe in exclusivity in the scope of spirituality in anyform, even if it's only a a name that is exclusive. Hence why the Christian beliefs I was forced into, never sat right with me.

The sun, moon, and stars are not exclusive to anyone. The Earth we dwell upon and the elements that surround us are not exclusive to anyone. The gods and goddesses of ages long past--patiently waiting to be called upon again--are not exclusive to anyone. They reach out to all with open arms, ready to take anyone within their embrace who seek them. Nature, itself, is not exclusive to anyone. In fact...if you think about it, there is no property exclusive to us really. One day we will all pass from this world into the next. When that happens, our possessions are no longer our own. They merely become things we left behind and those we left behind decide what is to be done with them.

This is not to say that I think Wicca is bad. I do not think Wicca is bad. I believe there are many aspects within Wicca that feel natural when communing with ones deity/ies. The circle is one of them. A circle is infinite, it shows the connection between all things, and it shows how whatever you put out, eventually comes back to you. A circle in many ways also shows balance, for no matter what point of a circle you focus on, there is another point, directly opposite of it.

I also favor the concept of god and goddess, lord and lady. I may believe there are many gods and goddesses, but I do believe their are two main deities that govern and watch over all.

As I said, this is just my opinion and was not meant to offend anyone, so I hope it has not done so.

I should also add, that although I do believe what you put out comes back to you, I also believe there are instances where a negative act by oneself counters the negative act of another, such as protecting ones child, ones loved ones or oneself from the harm of another. It's a natural instinct to protect those we care about, so I believe it is within us for a reason.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on July 31, 2012, 04:27:13 PM
To NaruralPaganMomma, speaking for myself, I like your response and am not at all offended.There are many different Paths , and as my first Wiccan HPS told me, "If anyone tells you they have the One True Way, RUN."

I agree that we have the right to use magic for self defense and the defense of others. The caveat here is differentiating defense from punishment and self examination to see what part, if any, you played in the problem.  Bouncing negative energy back is fine.  Shielding is fine.  Sometimes a binding though this is rare.  In my Path, cursing or "baneful magic" might be used once in a lifetime and even then under dire circumstances and after full discussion with the coven.  Covens are a valuable resource if you are very emotional and want to resort to cursing too quickly!!!

Anyway, those are my thoughts  and I enjoyed your post.  Lucifer is correct that disagreement can aid growth, so anyone feel free to chime in here.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Arnemetia on July 31, 2012, 07:43:46 PM
Naturalpaganmomma, I liked your post very much.  Its very close to how I feel myself.

I spend many Sabbats with a coven here, of which I am not an initiate.  The HPS asked me once about joining.  I told her I did not feel I needed my drivers license.  She understood and
accepts me just as I am.  She, by the way, is a 3rd degree Gardnerian.  Am I Wiccan?  Yes.  Do I celebrate the Sabbats and Esbats to the best of my ability? Yes.  Do I feel the Goddess and the God require me to be part of a coven to rejoice in them.  No.  I have a lot of respect for anyone, of any religion, who chooses to follow their beliefs in their own way, be it as an initiate, solitary or member of a congregation.  I think the key is to be accepting of each other.   
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 01, 2012, 11:24:43 PM
serafina and Arnemetia,

PHEW!!!! I am not going to lie. After posting my views, I did fear I might be thrown to the ground and pummeled with large sticks. I am happy to see I wasn't and that I was understood to boot.  ;D Thank you both. Blessings.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on August 02, 2012, 12:13:01 AM
Arne , looks like we got a couple of good ones. Lets hope they stick around .
Serafina , naturalpaganmomma , well spoken .
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Lark on August 03, 2012, 03:29:36 PM
Perhaps the biggest source of misunderstanding between those who are BTW and those who are not comes when a BTW practitioner tells someone who is not that they aren't Wiccan. It is certain to result in hurt feelings. And it often leads others to think that the BTW are elitist snobs. So let me see if I can explain it so that non-BTW can see what the issue is and why what they are saying has a certain truth to it.

As we all know, Gerald Gardner introduced Wicca to the world in 1954. As it was originally conceived, Wicca was a oath-bound, initiatory Tradition. That means that no one who is not an Initiation of Gardnerian Wicca would have been taught any of the true teachings of Gardnerian Wicca until after they were initiated and had taken a solemn vow not to reveal those teachings to anyone who was not also an Initiate. All of the other BTW Traditions also follow this custom. So unless one has undergone initiation into a BTW Tradition you really have no idea how Wicca (as it was originally conceived) is practiced.

So to many BTW having someone who has no idea what Wicca (as Gardner gave us) really is calling what they do Wicca feels to them as if it detracts from the hard work and effort that many of them have put in over the years to maintain Wicca as an oath-bound, mystery Tradition.

Now some of you will say that you have found Gardnerian or Alexandrian BOS on the internet, or you've read Lady Sheba's book, or you've read Aidan Kelly's book, or the Farrars and therefore you know how BTW practice. But do you really? These people took solemn oaths not to reveal their teachings to anyone not an Initiate. Do you believe that they really violated those oaths? And if they violated oaths given to those they were closest to in their covens, why would you think they are being truthful to you? Anything can claim to be a "real" BTW BOS, but you have no way of knowing whether that is true. Would you consider yourself a neurosurgeon and operate on patients just because you had read a book about a neurosurgeon?

At this point what generally happens is that the non-BTW becomes angry and feels that the BTW individual is saying that their path is not valid. But that isn't what is being said at all. Actually they aren't making any claims about the validity of your path. They are simply saying that it isn't Wicca because your practices are not the same as what BTW do. And according to Wiccan teachings, Wicca is orthopraxic rather than orthodoxic. In other words Wicca is a set of specific practices rather than a set of specific beliefs. They simply would rather that people would pick a different name for what they do, such as Witchcraft, rather than Wicca because using the title of Wiccan isn't accurate.

Now, not all BTW feel this way. Many of us, myself included, believe that this horse is well and truly out of the barn and we can't put it back again, even though we'd like to be able to do just that.

So not all of us will say anything if a non-BTW Initiate wants to call themselves Wiccan. But some will. And that's why I'm trying to explain where they are coming from so that perhaps hurt feelings can be avoided. Remember if someone says this to you they are not saying that you are a bad person or that your spiritual path isn't valid and important to you. All they are saying is that the word you are using to describe your path is inaccurate and another term would be better.

So when a BTW challenges someone on their use of the words Wicca or Wiccan they're not trying to be an elitist, they're not trying to belittle you, and they're not trying to say your path is invalid. They are simply saying you're applying a name to what you do that isn't accurate. Hopefully understanding that will help prevent hurt feelings and start building some better bridges of understanding between the BTW and those who are not.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 03, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
@Lark - Were these specific practices ever written down in Garner's own hand? The only reason I ask is because it seems kind of contradictory to write down something which you wish to be a secret. Anyone could happen upon the writing, and then it's not a secret anymore, you know?

If yes, they were written down, it probably wasn't meant to be as big of a secret as everyone seems to be making it. (Never write down something that you want to keep secret, you know? Anyone could find it and then it's not a secret anymore!). And in this case, it's entirely possible that the secrets got leaked as accurate and complete as originally intended.

If no, then as follows: It might make sense to trust your High Priestess or High Priest to present truly and fully the nature and origin of such oath-bound materials to initiates (who've earned the responsibilities that such material entails). But anything presented as an oral tradition has the tendancy to change or be skewed from generation to generation. The principles themselves, could easily be changed (unintentionally) with the exclusion or inclusion of one word.

Just something to think about.

Blessed Be
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 03, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
Not everyone who practices witchcraft actually wants to be seen as Wiccan or identifies  as a Wiccan you know. I have lost count of the number of people who have introduced themselves to me saying "I am a witch but I am not a Wiccan ok?" and who become quite as insulted by being called or preceived as a Wiccan as anyone here is getting by being told they are not a Wiccan.

In fact apart from here, most of the witchy-poo peeps I know are quite specific about NOT being Wiccan - for the very reason that it is a system that was devised within recent, living memory by one, two or three  - depending on your mindset on the matter - specific writers. As such many see Wicca as being part that  group of religions which include  but are not limited to: Discordianism, Scientology, Ecknabar, Rastfarianism, Santeria, Zoroastrianism and Luciferianism. Rather than being a continuance of an ancient craft.

Now I don't want anyone getting butt hurt about me having said that because I did not say it in order to  diss anyone's faith. Nor to belittle the system and practice of Wicca nor anyone's self identification or BTW endorsement as a Wiccan.
.
But I just felt that it needed to be said within the context of the discussion.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 03, 2012, 06:49:41 PM
I think all Wiccans are aware that that are plenty of Witchcraft Paths that have nothing to do with Wicca or Neowicca.  And the number of Wiccans who think theirs is ancient unbroken tradition is about zero.  No surprises there.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 03, 2012, 07:35:12 PM
No butthurt here.......
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 03, 2012, 07:47:35 PM
I think all Wiccans are aware that that are plenty of Witchcraft Paths that have nothing to do with Wicca or Neowicca.  And the number of Wiccans who think theirs is ancient unbroken tradition is about zero.  No surprises there.

You've obviously never visited WikiAnswers or Yahoo.

LMAO...there are THOUSANDS of them

eta: For ebs: Well if you feel a sudden ache in your nether regions develop, you have the appropriate form now to lodge a complaint.
 :-*
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 03, 2012, 08:02:20 PM
Neowiccans, maybe.  But not the Wiccans (BTW for clarification) that we have been discussing in this thread.  I don't even think that seasoned Neowiccans buy into that, maybe some Newbies or die hard Bunnies.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 03, 2012, 08:58:59 PM
Neowiccans, maybe.  But not the Wiccans (BTW for clarification) that we have been discussing in this thread.  I don't even think that seasoned Neowiccans buy into that, maybe some Newbies or die hard Bunnies.

And once again we're back to those labels

I was pretty sure that it has been established already ITT that:

...many "NeoWiccans" as you perceive them don't like that term being applied to them.

.....many who see themselves as intrinsically Wiccan are not BTW endorsed or board certified or whatever the correct terminology is.

And surely to fvck if you approach a godhead with good intent and sincerity they know that and don't have a list of pedigreed and cross bred supplicants at hand, weighing up the worthiness of each according to where or how from whom they obtained their credentials.



I just fail to see how it's helpful in practising what purports to be a faith path of tolerance and inclusiveness, it pays to keep making petty distinctions between genuses. Can you not get past who was initiated where and just concentrate on who knows what and who is erudite  informative, generous with sharing knowledge and just plain fun to deal with?

Serp for example is no kind of Wiccan at all and yet every lineaged Wiccan on this board...as well as the solitaries and anyone else who's been here for a while would agree with me that his knowledge and understanding of both the history and the bibliography of the faith is second to none. If you catch him in the right mood and haven't managed to piss him off, the things that man can tell you will take the top of your head off. C_A, the most comprehensively formally trained Wiccan here,  would I am sure be the first to agree with me on that.

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 03, 2012, 09:11:35 PM
eta: For ebs: Well if you feel a sudden ache in your nether regions develop, you have the appropriate form now to lodge a complaint.
 :-*

That I do....  ;D

Personally I don't care for the term neowiccan. I will never use it to describe myself.  I am gonna create a new yahoo account and get hooked up with the yahoo group that was mentioned. 

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 03, 2012, 10:41:52 PM
I would class myself as a very new, budding witch. Maybe even a Celtic witch, since it is the Celtic deities that call to me. They're the ones I am pulled towards. Maybe it is natural due to my ancestry. I had a lot of family that originated in Wales, England, Scotland and Ireland.

I think in some ways, and this is not everyone so no one get offended on me (LOL), people gravitate towards Wicca because it is the most widely talked about pagan path there is. It is the most widely known. It is also the only pagan religion/path recognized by the U.S. government as far as I know. That can come in handy when it comes to marriages, deaths, and other matters where legalities may come into play regarding religion.

I think you have many people who have read all they could about Wicca and class themselves as such. I understand it annoys BTWs, but it's not like there are many BTWs walking around offering to teach those people. But I also understand that BTWs aren't suppose to go around telling anyone anything anyway. It makes for a very difficult situation for both sides.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 06:03:45 AM
Excuse me - whoever said this path is all about inclusiveness?  If universities demand a level of achievement to be admitted, do you criticize them for not being inclusive?  And are there not many highly intelligent learned people who don't choose to  go to college at all but are highly educated none the less? Choosing to be BTW is a choice in much the same way.
By the way, since BTW's as well as other Pagans don't proselytize, it follows they are not aggressively offering to teach people.  However, classes, teachers and covens who are accepting new members are there if you approach them.
Do you feel resentment toward other Paths such as Isian Witchcraft or NROOD who require initiation and keep their oathbound information sacred?  Or Masons?   Or Rosicrutions?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 06:31:44 AM
I haven't seen anyone diss people who follow oathbound paths.  In fact since I've been here I have never seen anyone get upset at all with anyone who wouldn't share nor have I seen anyone even ask anyone to share their oathbound material.  I seem to recall me defending those that do follow those paths.  I would personally change my opinion of anyone who shared material that was oathbound.  I would delete said material if I knew it was oathbound.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 08:28:33 AM
Did I misunderstand?  My bad if I did, but it seemed the thread was taking a turn in that direction, esp from Scorched Earth. I felt we had a constructive debate going on with people trying to understand the other side.  Though it may not seem that way, I well understand people's love for the term "Wicca" and the indignation of some at feeling left out.  And I know many who are not BTW are extremely intelligent and capable. 

Well met
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 08:38:25 AM
I think you might have misunderstood what she was saying.  I ain't defending her but the only issue I saw was the use of the word neowiccan.  We don't have many Lineaged Wiccans that are posting here right now, but we do have a number of Wiccans who follow a solitary path.  The use of the word neowiccan to describe them is most likely to offend those folks. 

It's all good :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 08:41:43 AM
Sorry, no disrespect was intended. I value our discussion and your various Paths.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 08:44:09 AM
None taken :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Arnemetia on August 04, 2012, 09:02:41 AM
I am also one who does not like the term Neo Wicca.  I associate that term with Fluffy Bunnies and McWiccans;  with those young and old who have read one book and now know it all.  The solitaries I know have studied for more than 10 years.  Their path is not an easy one.  We get what we can from books, forums and from those we meet willing to answer our questions.  We must seek our way.  The difficulty of the solitary path is one of the reasons I have chosen it.
 
Serafina, I have a lot of respect for those who choose to learn through a coven.  Its just not for me. 
       
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 04:13:06 PM
Arn I feel the same way. Neo Wicca is an insult to all I have committed myself to for the last 14
years. I'm sure there is much to learn from a coven, but it's not for me. Most of what I have learn
is from books and this forum. To learn from C_A is a privilage, and Serp is always ready to share
if asked. Serp is a well of knowledge. There are many to learn from here, even those that are
oathbound will share their opinion. Lineaged I will probably never be, right now due to lifes circum
staces. But I am in no way ignorate of Wiccan ways, Just lacking in some areas.

Most religions these days are ready and want to share their religion.  Many Wiccans will not share
Their knowledge. I understand the point of being oathbound. But is Wicca stagnating in the pure
ness you try to protect. Religions must grow to avoid being nothing but a mystery religion that
could these days under the right conditions disappear. Where would that leave the solitary?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 04:44:18 PM
You know I mentioned in an earlier post that I don't think a couple of Wiccan groups shouldn't be calling themselves Wiccan and I will throw em out there.  I will apologize in advance if anyone is offended about it but it is just my opinion.  The militant Dianic Wiccans that refuse to include the Lord in their practice at all and Faery Wicca.  The second one is there because it is the epitome of fluffyness imo.  Wicca is not whatever you want it to be.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 04:53:49 PM
Thanks Marisol, but for the record, I'm not, nor have I ever been, a Wiccan. 

I'm actually a Neo-Baptist. Young Earth Creationism, The Rapture, Revival shows, layin' on of hands,  speaking in tongues, Jebus on a T-Rex, the whole show. Ever since Jimmy Swaggart first showed me the way. That man is an inspiration to us all. I'm only really here to pray for the lost ones. Yanno, stop y'all joining the Hellbound in that lake of fire for eternity. . . . . . It does sound nice and warm there though. Heaven must be quite cold, up there in all the clouds, with the wind and stuff. I hate the cold. Damp too, I shouldn't wonder.  . . . . . I really shouldn't wonder . . . Sorry, almost derailed a serious thread there . . . . No, really, I am sorry. I'd best shut up before I get in trouble. I already got one forum axed this week.  . .
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 05:10:20 PM
Damn Serp I must apologize to you.   I thought you were a follower of Pat Robertson.   :-p
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 05:53:41 PM
Thanks Marisol, but for the record, I'm not, nor have I ever been, a Wiccan. 

I'm actually a Neo-Baptist. Young Earth Creationism, The Rapture, Revival shows, layin' on of hands,  speaking in tongues, Jebus on a T-Rex, the whole show. Ever since Jimmy Swaggart first showed me the way. That man is an inspiration to us all. I'm only really here to pray for the lost ones. Yanno, stop y'all joining the Hellbound in that lake of fire for eternity. . . . . . It does sound nice and warm there though. Heaven must be quite cold, up there in all the clouds, with the wind and stuff. I hate the cold. Damp too, I shouldn't wonder.  . . . . . I really shouldn't wonder . . . Sorry, almost derailed a serious thread there . . . . No, really, I am sorry. I'd best shut up before I get in trouble. I already got one forum axed this week.  . .

He is in fact founder and Sage-in Chief of the First Chapel of Holy Cows[hit]. Where as an intrinsic element of the liturgy they engage in chemical fuelled sex magick and talk in tongues a lot of bollocks.

And for the record Serafina I wasn't attempting to offend or alienate you, or any other lineaged Wiccan hereabouts, though I may have implied that your apparent tendency of elevating BTW's above all other kinds of Wiccans   in terms of legitimacy and entitlement to attach certain labels to themselves may indeed offend a few others who post here.

And pardon me for my error but I had thought that as someone who has spent many years  honouring their spiritual forebears, both Indigenous Australian and Celtic pagan, that I might to be entitled to be regarded as one who also follows an "earthbound path" -  though I may well not actually use such terminology to describe what I feel and believe.

ETA: And it's Scorched Eartha, btw ("by the the way"...not British Traditional Wiccan obviously, as I am utterly unworthy of and unqualified for that honorific).

"Scorched earth" was  Stalin's wartime strategy to rout the invading Reich's army - effective if somewhat high cost to the local populace.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
Excuse me - whoever said this path is all about inclusiveness?  If universities demand a level of achievement to be admitted, do you criticize them for not being inclusive?  And are there not many highly intelligent learned people who don't choose to  go to college at all but are highly educated none the less? Choosing to be BTW is a choice in much the same way.
By the way, since BTW's as well as other Pagans don't proselytize, it follows they are not aggressively offering to teach people.  However, classes, teachers and covens who are accepting new members are there if you approach them.
Do you feel resentment toward other Paths such as Isian Witchcraft or NROOD who require initiation and keep their oathbound information sacred?  Or Masons?   Or Rosicrutions?

I don't "resent" anyone's spiritual choices. But attitudes which conveys a snotty sense of superiority always get on my wick.

I said several times I am no kind of Wiccan at all - so "resenting" anything about your credentials would be kind of nonsensical, n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 06:43:22 PM
Hello Scorched Eartha, I wrote another reply that was somehow "eaten" when we posted at the same time.  I said explicitly that being BTW Wiccan does not make you de facto better, more accomplished or a more powerful Witch.  How much clearer could I be?  The training is different but NOT necessarily more intensive than other Paths.  By the way, I refer to myself as Neowiccan and will if or until I get a legitimate initiation into a BTW Path.  I see no disrespect in the term Neopagan either and do not equate "Neowicca" or "Neopagan" with fluffiness.  I was not being dismissive or derogatory.  Were you saying that BTW"s in general have a snotty attitude, or specifically me?  Because if a BTW claims to be superior ONLY on the basis of their pedigree I'll join you in taking them to task, and so would most BTW's I know. 

And I believe that the radical feminist Dianics have seen the light and not refer to themselves as Dianic Witches.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 06:49:07 PM
Whoops- sorry-typo.  The Dianics NOW refer to themselves as Dianic Witches.  Glad I caught that!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on August 04, 2012, 06:55:22 PM
I may not be lineaged, but I WAS given my rites on midnight on Mabon during a full moon. Makes me somewhat powerful, ya think? I respect those that have lineage and can PROVE it, like our dear C_A. And I believe he and I had come to an understanding in one of the first pages of this thread. I am sure that SOMEWHERE I have roots farther back in Wicca as I can trace my maternal grandmother back to England in the 1500s and that I am in fact a cousin to HRH Prince William of Wales, Duke of Cambridge on his mother's side. Wanna keep messing with me and proving that you know so much? I will start researching though, where my teacher got his knowledge from and how far his teacher goes back. As far as the term Wicca, wasn't defined as "Wise One"? Not "I can prove I am a student of Gardner, therefore I'm better than you." I knew NOTHING about the term lineaged until C_A started this thread, and I have learned a lot. Quite frankly, if he is the exception to those who have the proper title, I'd rather NOT be lineaged. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear this nitpicking about BTWs and Gardnerians. I stated previously how I felt about the attitude that I have seen by a few in this thread and they aren't the "regs".

I believe in the God AND the Goddess and that the Earth is sacred and Mother Nature is not one to be crossed as we havebeen doing for SEVERAL years now. If that makes me "neowiccan" so be it. I will CONTINUE to refer to my religion as Wicca regardless of what others may think. Saying that I can't because I never was initiated by someone taught by some guy that has passed on, is like saying I can't be Christian because I haven't been baptized.

I apologize if I offended anyone, but those that have seen me here enough know that I have learned not to back down and how to start getting comfortable in my own skin.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 07:03:44 PM
I was saying that you came across to me as snotty. Now you may well not have meant to - but that was the distinct impression which some of your proclamations left.

And I may be mistaken in this, but I think I was far from the only one who felt that.

And yes I have previously encountered a number of BTW's who exhibit a similar superiority to the one I thought (erroneously or not) I detected inherent in your posts. And so have a few others here I imagine.

So there is an understandable degree of sensitivity on the issue among many solitary practitioners. Not just here but elsewhere, including the real world.  I have seen it first hand on a number of occasions at community events like the Australian Wiccan and Pagan Conference, where clashes of that type are more commonplace than many would like to admit. And people weighed up as being "worthy" or not of being taken into covens where they might be allowed ingress to the oathbound stuff.

Now my "paths" have always been of the inclusive type. In that anyone who approaches with respect and curiosity and a will to ask and learn will be welcomed with open arms. They may then progress along the learning curve to the points at which all will be willingly, nay even joyfully divulged to them.

I am more than willing to admit that this is a personal predilection of mine, but "paths" which are not inclusive seem to me to be a bit of a self aggrandising wankfest. Not accusing you personally or BTW in general of that flaw either - it's just a generalised kind of observation. In response to your earlier query about why was inclusiveness something I felt had intrinsic value.


What after all is any kind of knowledge any use for, if not for sharing with those eager to learn?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 04, 2012, 07:10:20 PM
T Alyceavary, it sounds like you take pride and joy in your Path.  Wonderful.  But I can't help wondering it people really read what I posted?  I understand the debate about who should use the word "Wiccan," and I understand your side, but where are you getting that I am denigrating your practices???  That's a whole different issue, something I would never do, and would not aspire to be BTW if that attitude was pervasive with them.  There are intolerant people in every religion and every Path.  Don't characterize all BTW's that way.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 04, 2012, 07:13:55 PM
@Alyce - wicca (or wica) is an old english word that meant something to the affect of "male witch". It was a word borrowed from English by Gardner and his followers to describe themselves, and then later used as the name (label) of their beliefs & practices (religion).

my only issue with someone thinking that they can own the title of "Wicca" or "Wiccan" is that it wasn't a word which was invented for the purpose of being a new religion. If you want to be fair about it, you should call yourselves Gardnerians if you're followers or initiates into the Gardner ``Wicca'', and leave us alone to use the word "Wicca" just as Gardner himself did.

@serafina - You may be a NeoWiccan, but count the rest of us out of that pointless classification. We are (all) Wiccans (but I've already told you that via PM)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 07:15:44 PM
T Alyceavary, it sounds like you take pride and joy in your Path.  Wonderful.  But I can't help wondering it people really read what I posted?  I understand the debate about who should use the word "Wiccan," and I understand your side, but where are you getting that I am denigrating your practices???  That's a whole different issue, something I would never do, and would not aspire to be BTW if that attitude was pervasive with them.  There are intolerant people in every religion and every Path.  Don't characterize all BTW's that way.

Now I read that post fairly closely (Aly's I mean) and nowhere did I see her make any imprecation against any other path or the followers thereof.

What I saw was a fairly clear and well reasoned statement of why she feels that she has every right to refer to herself as a Wiccan and to reject the label NeoWiccan - which no matter how you dress it up, you are still fairly obviously determined that she and many others who also reject it, ought to accept as their lot.

And she doesn't like that much. And knowing her as I do I might let you know - she ain't about to back down now.


Just fyi.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 07:19:18 PM
@Alyce - wicca (or wica) is an old english word that meant something to the affect of "male witch". It was a word borrowed from English by Gardner and his followers to describe themselves, and then later used as the name (label) of their beliefs & practices (religion).

my only issue with someone thinking that they can own the title of "Wicca" or "Wiccan" is that it wasn't a word which was invented for the purpose of being a new religion. If you want to be fair about it, you should call yourselves Gardnerians if you're followers or initiates into the Gardner ``Wicca'', and leave us alone to use the word "Wicca" just as Gardner himself did.

@serafina - You may be a NeoWiccan, but count the rest of us out of that pointless classification. We are (all) Wiccans (but I've already told you that via PM)


^^^THIS. VERY MUCH THIS^^^
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on August 04, 2012, 07:25:48 PM
T Alyceavary, it sounds like you take pride and joy in your Path.  Wonderful.  But I can't help wondering it people really read what I posted?  I understand the debate about who should use the word "Wiccan," and I understand your side, but where are you getting that I am denigrating your practices???  That's a whole different issue, something I would never do, and would not aspire to be BTW if that attitude was pervasive with them.  There are intolerant people in every religion and every Path.  Don't characterize all BTW's that way.

Now I read that post fairly closely (Aly's I mean) and nowhere did I see her make any imprecation against any other path or the followers thereof.

What I saw was a fairly clear and well reasoned statement of why she feels that she has every right to refer to herself as a Wiccan and to reject the label NeoWiccan - which no matter how you dress it up, you are still fairly obviously determined that she and many others who also reject it, ought to accept as their lot.

And she doesn't like that much. And knowing her as I do I might let you know - she ain't about to back down now.


Just fyi.

Awwww.....you made me giggle and smile ear to ear.

Serafina, SE is QUITE right. Go read some of my replies to "newbies" who ended up being trolls. If you WANT this to get personal, so be it. I am MORE than willing to oblige. I have a TON of stress right now and will be willing to get it all out by lashing out ad arguing with you. Not a problem. And yes, I have read your posts.....have you read mine? Have you started at the very FIRST post in this thread and see how long it took for me to even reply to that? I can agree to disagree and I can respect others opinions, when not forced down my throat or repeatedly spouted with an attitude that no one is listening to you or giving you your proper respect. And just fyi, this is me being NICE. I talk with Khara and some others on a regular basis....they've rubbed off on me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 08:10:33 PM
Now now Ladies, that "Witchier than thou" attitude is most unbecoming in a respectable Pagan forum. Nothing worse than a cackle/gaggle/snaggle of (what is the collective noun for?) Witches arguing the toss over . . . . um, sorry, I forgot what the bone of contention was. Something about broomsticks or ovens or whatever, wasn't it? Now stop it or I shall be forced to pray for you all.   
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 08:19:38 PM
Now now Ladies, that "Witchier than thou" attitude is most unbecoming in a respectable Pagan forum. Nothing worse than a cackle/gaggle/snaggle of (what is the collective noun for?) Witches arguing the toss over . . . . um, sorry, I forgot what the bone of contention was. Something about broomsticks or ovens or whatever, wasn't it? Now stop it or I shall be forced to pray for you all.

(http://trollable.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Smart-Ass.jpg)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 04, 2012, 09:01:27 PM
serafina,  let me suggest when you use the word neowiccan that it's done in such a way that you are the only person that you are reffering to and you will be ok.  :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 10:18:04 PM
Great idea EbS!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 10:22:33 PM
Cutie pie sorry if it seemed like I grouped you with the Wiccans. Wasn't meant to seem that way
I know you are a neo cathollic.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 10:50:06 PM
eta: For ebs: Well if you feel a sudden ache in your nether regions develop, you have the appropriate form now to lodge a complaint.
 :-*

That I do....  ;D

Personally I don't care for the term neowiccan. I will never use it to describe myself.  I am gonna create a new yahoo account and get hooked up with the yahoo group that was mentioned. 


Gonna Troll those "Darksided" Yahoo McWiccan Heretics EBS? Sounds like a hoot.

"Fi Fie Fo Fum, show them neos, how it's done, be they fluffys, be they fakes, make them eat patchouli cakes,
If the Wiccan Rede they spurn, remind them how a witch can burn, If they mumbles "blessed be", spike their mead with LSD"*

*Neo Traditionalist nursery rhyme.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 11:13:22 PM
Serp that deserves a place in my book.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 11:14:56 PM
Cutie pie sorry if it seemed like I grouped you with the Wiccans. Wasn't meant to seem that way
I know you are a neo cathollic.
Pffft. I'll have you know I'm a I'm a Neo-Reichian contra-temporalist. A Techno-evolutionary Chaote, with a pre-programmed Eristically principled wetware bundle. *Haruumph" Neo-Catholic indeed!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 11:17:06 PM
Wee willy Serp-man
running through the forum
Upsettin' all the witchy folk
Has the prick got no decorum?

Rattling all the windows
on their lolly houses
And if they bleat he just repeats
"What a pack of big girls blouses"@

@Neo trolldom's reply verse
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 11:21:24 PM
What a lively thread this has turned into. Makes a change. Although, I thought I felt the influence of Eris earlier.. . . .
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 11:24:43 PM
What a lively thread this has turned into. Makes a change. Although, I thought I felt the influence of Eris earlier.. . . .

Shhh!! don't call that contrary bitch out - you know what she's like when you wake her after she's spent a Saturday night inciting Mancurians to start brawls on Canal Street.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 04, 2012, 11:30:19 PM
Cutie pie sorry if it seemed like I grouped you with the Wiccans. Wasn't meant to seem that way
I know you are a neo cathollic.

He's a chemical fuelled Erisian actually.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 11:34:38 PM
I kind of like him this way, he's never a disappointment.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 05, 2012, 12:41:43 AM
Cutie pie sorry if it seemed like I grouped you with the Wiccans. Wasn't meant to seem that way
I know you are a neo cathollic.

He's a chemical fuelled Erisian actually.
Chemically enhanced, get it right. You can't fuel me.  ::)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 05, 2012, 12:44:15 AM
What a lively thread this has turned into. Makes a change. Although, I thought I felt the influence of Eris earlier.. . . .

Shhh!! don't call that contrary bitch out - you know what she's like when you wake her after she's spent a Saturday night inciting Mancurians to start brawls on Canal Street.
She's my constant companion. Don't go blaming her for stuff she may not have even done. Or even for stuff she has done. She bites the pointy finger of aspersion clean off at the first carpal, and makes rattles out of the bones. For her good children. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 05, 2012, 12:59:34 AM
What a lively thread this has turned into. Makes a change. Although, I thought I felt the influence of Eris earlier.. . . .

Shhh!! don't call that contrary bitch out - you know what she's like when you wake her after she's spent a Saturday night inciting Mancurians to start brawls on Canal Street.
She's my constant companion. Don't go blaming her for stuff she may not have even done. Or even for stuff she has done. She bites the pointy finger of aspersion clean off at the first carpal, and makes rattles out of the bones. For her good children.

Aren't you supposed to be buying mayonnaise and mushrooms for some bizarre Erisian ritual you had planned at the Little Chapel of Pastafarian Goodness or summat??
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 05, 2012, 01:38:33 AM
LOL he's really quite amusing.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 05, 2012, 04:51:36 AM
eta: For ebs: Well if you feel a sudden ache in your nether regions develop, you have the appropriate form now to lodge a complaint.
 :-*

That I do....  ;D

Personally I don't care for the term neowiccan. I will never use it to describe myself.  I am gonna create a new yahoo account and get hooked up with the yahoo group that was mentioned. 


Gonna Troll those "Darksided" Yahoo McWiccan Heretics EBS? Sounds like a hoot.

Only time will tell.  I am going to ask Eris to show me the way.  She has been kicking around in my life a lot lately so I figure I will go straight to Her for advice on this one.  :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 05, 2012, 12:50:48 PM
I am going to ask everyone to leave what has occured in this thread in this thread.  Bleed over into other threads will not be tollerated.  I hate to pull rank but I do have a job todo.  Hopefully noone will be butthurt about it.  I do have the proper form to lodge a complaint if anyone needs it.  :-p

Everyone's cooperation is expected.

Thanks,

EBS
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: alyceavary on August 05, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
I've said my peace many times over and have no desire to cause trouble in the other thread unless needed. No butthurt from me, EBS. You've been very diplomatic in this thread and I apologize if I have come across rude in any way during this discussion. :D
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 05, 2012, 10:31:43 PM
Excuse me - whoever said this path is all about inclusiveness?  If universities demand a level of achievement to be admitted, do you criticize them for not being inclusive?  And are there not many highly intelligent learned people who don't choose to  go to college at all but are highly educated none the less? Choosing to be BTW is a choice in much the same way.
By the way, since BTW's as well as other Pagans don't proselytize, it follows they are not aggressively offering to teach people.  However, classes, teachers and covens who are accepting new members are there if you approach them.
Do you feel resentment toward other Paths such as Isian Witchcraft or NROOD who require initiation and keep their oathbound information sacred?  Or Masons?   Or Rosicrutions?

I'm not attacking you, just trying to clarify the situation. Was that directed towards me because I don't see where I was taking a shot at anyone. I was only pointing out I could see both sides of the situation which makes it hard for parties on both sides.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 05, 2012, 10:39:50 PM
Excuse me - whoever said this path is all about inclusiveness?  If universities demand a level of achievement to be admitted, do you criticize them for not being inclusive?  And are there not many highly intelligent learned people who don't choose to  go to college at all but are highly educated none the less? Choosing to be BTW is a choice in much the same way.
By the way, since BTW's as well as other Pagans don't proselytize, it follows they are not aggressively offering to teach people.  However, classes, teachers and covens who are accepting new members are there if you approach them.
Do you feel resentment toward other Paths such as Isian Witchcraft or NROOD who require initiation and keep their oathbound information sacred?  Or Masons?   Or Rosicrutions?

I'm not attacking you, just trying to clarify the situation. Was that directed towards me because I don't see where I was taking a shot at anyone. I was only pointing out I could see both sides of the situation which makes it hard for parties on both sides.

Nevermind. Just caught up. Sorry about that. This is what I get for going through my email alerts diligently from oldest to newest. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 05, 2012, 10:47:14 PM
I am going to ask everyone to leave what has occured in this thread in this thread.  Bleed over into other threads will not be tollerated.  I hate to pull rank but I do have a job todo.  Hopefully noone will be butthurt about it.  I do have the proper form to lodge a complaint if anyone needs it.  :-p

Everyone's cooperation is expected.

Thanks,

EBS

Look it was all my fault anyway. I was just feeling snippy and snarky and moody.

I apologise profusely -  to you and to Serafina and everyone...okay??

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 05, 2012, 10:57:06 PM
I am going to ask everyone to leave what has occured in this thread in this thread.  Bleed over into other threads will not be tollerated.  I hate to pull rank but I do have a job todo.  Hopefully noone will be butthurt about it.  I do have the proper form to lodge a complaint if anyone needs it.  :-p

Everyone's cooperation is expected.

Thanks,

EBS

Look it was all my fault anyway. I was just feeling snippy and snarky and moody.

I apologise profusely -  to you and to Serafina and everyone...okay??

No need to apologize to me babe. As far as I'm concerned, we're good.  ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 05, 2012, 11:51:55 PM
I am going to ask everyone to leave what has occured in this thread in this thread.  Bleed over into other threads will not be tollerated.  I hate to pull rank but I do have a job todo.  Hopefully noone will be butthurt about it.  I do have the proper form to lodge a complaint if anyone needs it.  :-p

Everyone's cooperation is expected.

Thanks,

EBS

Look it was all my fault anyway. I was just feeling snippy and snarky and moody.

I apologise profusely -  to you and to Serafina and everyone...okay??

No need to apologize to me babe. As far as I'm concerned, we're good.  ;)

I just wanted EBS to know I how sorry I am...now keep it under your hat, we don't want him gettin' a big head - goodness knows Serp's is taking up enough room in the joint as it is - but I am quite fond of EBS and I don't like to think he's miffed with me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 06, 2012, 06:54:51 AM
Hiya SE, Its easy to get locked into one little corner of the Pagan world and lose perspective of how other people may feel  about some issues.  I ended up learning and having a bigger view.  Next time I won't be Ms Blunder of the Universe (hopefully).  Looking forward to seeing you on another thread.   :)  And thanks.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 06, 2012, 07:51:34 AM
Hiya SE, Its easy to get locked into one little corner of the Pagan world and lose perspective of how other people may feel  about some issues.  I ended up learning and having a bigger view.  Next time I won't be Ms Blunder of the Universe (hopefully).  Looking forward to seeing you on another thread.   :)  And thanks.
The only real issue I've had with what you were saying is the fact that you yourself aren't even ``lineaged'', yet you claimed to share a viewpoint of those who are. If the secret to being lineaged is getting to read someone else's oath-bound BoS (but you haven't) you couldn't say for sure if we share the same views and practices or not (personally, I think that a BoS should be shared only between immediate family or close friends whom you trust... it's something too personal for the whole world to know).

Really, though, you shouldn't have to apologize for defending your viewpoint... You're entitled to yours (and to defend it), but don't expect everyone (or anyone) else to agree!

Blessed Be
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 06, 2012, 08:02:42 AM
I share mine with noone unless they are going to practice with me.  Friends and family irl that  are non Wiccan and won't participate with me will never see it.

Eta:  Imo, to share your BOS with a non believer is like saying, oh look how super kewl I am.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 06, 2012, 08:18:21 AM
I share mine with noone unless they are going to practice with me.  Friends and family irl that  are non Wiccan and won't participate with me will never see it.

Eta:  Imo, to share your BOS with a non believer is like saying, oh look how super kewl I am.
Want to practice with me some time? I'm looking for help with this spell....
oh, wait, we don't do that here.... :(

anyway, I personally believe that sharing your BoS with the wrong people who are believers would be even worse... it's like saying "here's some bullets for that empty gun that you're pointing at me!"

I'm sure you (Earthbound Spirit) know well the people whom you practice with, but I thought I'd throw that out there for anyone who might have considered just meeting random Wiccans for informal BoS sharing get-togethers ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 06, 2012, 08:28:26 AM
I seriously doubt that Gardner's BOS that is available online is his real/full one.  I seem to recall a Gardnerian even disputing that claim here once.  Even if it is,  I feel very sorry for the person who broke their oath by releasing it.

I would share my BOS with other believers.  I don't have any qualms about that.  There is certainly nothing oathbound by any means in it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 06, 2012, 08:47:56 AM
I seriously doubt that Gardner's BOS that is available online is his real/full one.  I seem to recall a Gardnerian even disputing that claim here once.  Even if it is,  I feel very sorry for the person who broke their oath by releasing it.

I would share my BOS with other believers.  I don't have any qualms about that.  There is certainly nothing oathbound by any means in it.
Someone malicious manages to get pas the initiation. As many people are initiated Garderians, it's not unthinkable that even the malicious ones who don't really belong can slip through occasionally.

Upon realizing this, the High Priest or High Priestess either immediately stop the progression of that initiate or they expel them completely from their order. The malicious person has Gardner's book already in their possession, and leak it as a means of getting revenge (they're malcious and can obviously not see the reprocussions of anything malicious done under the Goddess)... as some attempt at damage control, the HPs collectively seek to discredit and denounce the leaked material as being real (going around online behind him saying that it's a fake, only something that someone who had a vested interest in keeping the truth about it secret would do!)

so really, I'm not saying that the real one can be downloaded from the internet (nor would it matter if it could, because a BoS is pretty useless unless you know what it's original intent and context was)... What I'm saying that is that it's entirely possible for the real thing to be floating around out there, but it doesn't really matter because you likely wouldn't be able to understand it's meaning even if you did find it. That is all

Blessed Be
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 06, 2012, 05:12:57 PM
Does a Catholic / Protestant analogy get anywhere close to describing the Lineaged / Non-Lineaged issue?
With Lineaged "BTW" as Roman Catholicism, and and Non-Lineaged Wicca as Protestants? The premise that (To a Roman Catholic) Protestantism covers any other Christian path, that is not part of Mother Church, doesn't detract from the point that non-Catholics are just as entitled to be considered as "Christian" Catholics are.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 06, 2012, 06:34:25 PM
Hi Lucifer, you brought up some really good points IMHO.  Not all BTW info is oathbound,  You can learn a lot hanging out with BTW's, in the training process if you are accepted by a BTW coven (it's called "Outer Court" and the initiates are obviously "Inner Court") You hang out with them, train and circle with them (tailored for OC of course) and after a year and a day, or longer you can request initiation. You acquire your lineage at your initiation and get to copy your BOS soon after. The lineage is matrifocal  though they cross gender initiate.

I have thought about something you touched on.  The Neophyte does not know much about the BTW deities until the last minute.  That takes  a hell of a lot of Love and Trust.  Other things are made known then too.  Good thing a relationship of at least a year has been established, and all parties are working on trust.

Now, several rather nasty traditions claim to have moles embedded in BTW covens.  The HP/S are always watching for this.  As to whether a Gard BOS has really been pirated, I can't say.  An initiate could recognize it immediately of course, but they would NEVER let on, so who knows? Personally I think the rumor of moles was started to breed discord and suspicion among Gards but that has not happened.  Answer your question?  And then some?  LOL
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 06, 2012, 06:51:56 PM
Now, several rather nasty traditions claim to have moles embedded in BTW covens.  The HP/S are always watching for this.  As to whether a Gard BOS has really been pirated, I can't say.  An initiate could recognize it immediately of course, but they would NEVER let on, so who knows? Personally I think the rumor of moles was started to breed discord and suspicion among Gards but that has not happened.  Answer your question?  And then some?  LOL
I was actually thinking about just that issue. If you take an oath to keep something a secret, it would be ( in a way ) breaking that oath to say "I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you what it's not!", so no oathbound Gardnerian initiate should ever even address the issue of a fake BoS (or the real thing) because saying what isn't the real Gardner BoS would seem to be in contradiction to the oath to keep it's contents a secret, right?

I suppose some low-level initiate may have said, "It's a fake!" before considering this point, but who knows for sure... or is the oath involved not that strict about such matters? (but then, if you know the answer to that, you're probably obligated not to say ;), so please take my inquiry as a rhetorical one )
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 06, 2012, 07:58:08 PM
Real secrets by their nature, can't be told.  :-X  If it can, then it's a confidence, and not a secret.




Sorry if that sounds just a tiny bit pedantic, but it's a valid distinction that's often completely overlooked.




Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 06, 2012, 08:46:46 PM
I would strongly disagree with your take on calling a fake a fake lucifer.  I dont see how that could possibly be breaking of an oath in anyway, shape or form.

Eta:  You are not providing any oathbound material by saying something is fake.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 06, 2012, 09:59:53 PM
I would strongly disagree with your take on calling a fake a fake lucifer.  I dont see how that could possibly be breaking of an oath in anyway, shape or form.

Eta:  You are not providing any oathbound material by saying something is fake.
By that standard for what oathbound means, I could ask you (infinite) questions, all of which if answered truthfully (yes or no) would produce the same effect as just telling me what the secret was in the firstplace...

Say for instance that something is a fake, and the reply from someone who knows this is that "It's fake"... so if the real one was to appear, the honest question & answer would be "Is it a fake?" followed by a *no-response* (or a lie that, "Yes... it's a fake")...

Out of the two, I'd honestly think that you'd be more likely to get lied to, because people always try to manipulate the situation... and if it's someone's job to keep a secret, the only way to do that after the fact of said secret being leaked would be to lie and say "It's a fake!", which causes some doubts about the reality of said secret.

Which is reason-1 why you shouldn't trust (~anyone for any reason~) any sort of lineaged responder telling you that a Gardner BoS is a fake. If it's their job to protect the secrets about their religion, then they'd most-definitely lie to you to keep said secrets from being known.


... I suppose the real thing which I really don't understand in any of this is why anyone would want the Gardner BoS anyway... It doesn't seem like taking someone else's personal work through their spiritual journey and trying to apply it to one's own life would be meaningful to me.

If you ask the Goddess questions, does she not answer you? Why would you need to see what someone else wrote down as the answers on their test, when your test was your whole life and the answers didn't ever matter? Are people just trying to compare notes to see if their on the same path? Does it really even matter if they happen to be on the same path?! Is it just for the purposes of knowing what label to put on themselves? Does it even really matter what you call yourself? I personally think what really matters is how you live your life, not what you call yourself while doing it. Am I missing something here? Anyone care to explain why someone who wasn't a Gardnerian would want Gardner's BoS?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 06, 2012, 10:30:51 PM
I would feel no obligation at all to answer your questions or answer them all with "I am not at liberty to say" or "I haven't a clue" or "It's none of your fing business".  End of story.  :)

I think any real Wiccan would love to have a look at Gardner's BOS.  He is "the" man afterall.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 06, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
His BOS contains the information as to how Wicca was intended to be practiced.  It isn't a religion to be whatever you want it to be.

As I said earlier I would feel sorry for anyone who would break their oath by releasing the information. I suspect the Law of Return would kick the shit out of them and deservedly so.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 07, 2012, 12:00:03 AM
BOS in all the BTW trads are actually mostly ritual scripts as BTW is orthopraxic rather than being defined by belief.  I have seen Elders vigorously deny that published versions of Gardner's BOS are real.  I have also seen them say deadpan that they are indeed real and then burst into laughter, leaving everyone scratching their heads.
Though there is a  blueprint for most rituals, they meditate, commune with the God/dees and ask questions just like everyone else.There is actually a wide variety of belief and perception of divinity even within an individual coven and that doesn't seem to bother anybody.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 07, 2012, 11:35:33 AM
What is the big deal about Gardners BOS? Everyone knows that he probabley had one, but what if
he didn't. Not our business anymore than EbS's is.If you're so curious go join the coven and find
out. Serafina can't tell you. Respect the oath and quite poking at it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 07, 2012, 12:03:47 PM
Respect the oath and quite poking at it.
It wasn't my oath to take, and it isn't mine to break... If someone can't handle the stress of keeping a secret when people will ALWAYS be curious to know (as curiosity is in the nature of all humans) and will always be asking them, then they shouldn't have taken the oath to keep said material secret...

If someone takes my curiosity as being disrespectful, it's probably something which they are inferring and not something which was implied. Besides the fact that I don't want to know what's in the Gardner BoS so much as I want to know what the big deal that people are making out of it is...

Basically, everyone else wants to get ahold of something, and I want to know why... just curiosity, not malicious in and of it's own nature (but I am trying to respect the fact that people are oathbound, which is why I've stated that I don't want them thinking about breaking their oaths on my behalf [or at least that's what the intended meaning behind what I was saying is])
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 07, 2012, 03:37:00 PM
I told you why most people who consider themselves Wiccan would want a look at it.  I personally wouldn't even think of asking someone to break their oath to satisfy my couriosity.  If I were to ask a question of someone and their response was that the info was oathbound, it would never come up again from me.  I respect the oaths that BTWs take and they should be taken very seriously.  Oath breakers will pay for their misdeeds.  I truly believe that.  I wouldn't want to piss off the Crone aspect of the Goddess.  She might be inclined to ask Eris to deal with it.  I can assure everyone that you don't want to be on Her shit list.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 07, 2012, 04:48:07 PM
Lucifer, it is intriguing and your interest doesn't offend me.  And you're right , you do have to be someone who can keep your mouth shut and I'm ssurprised there haven't been more leaks.  Or maybe damage control is REALLY good.  To my knowledge only two Gards have broken ranks and intentionally blabbed.  One out of principle because he no longer believed in secrecy and the other for money.  Needless to say they are considered lower than scum and are unwelcome at any BTW gathering.
The sanctity of the BoS is taken so seriously  that my HPs told me if she ever found a lost Bos , BTW or not, she would return it sealed and unread to an Elder of that tradition.
You can see how serious a decision is to request initiation.  I would appreciate all the energy of Wisdom that you can throw in my direction!!!!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 08, 2012, 06:44:18 PM
Lucifer, it is intriguing and your interest doesn't offend me.  And you're right , you do have to be someone who can keep your mouth shut and I'm ssurprised there haven't been more leaks.  Or maybe damage control is REALLY good.  To my knowledge only two Gards have broken ranks and intentionally blabbed.  One out of principle because he no longer believed in secrecy and the other for money.  Needless to say they are considered lower than scum and are unwelcome at any BTW gathering.
The sanctity of the BoS is taken so seriously  that my HPs told me if she ever found a lost Bos , BTW or not, she would return it sealed and unread to an Elder of that tradition.
You can see how serious a decision is to request initiation.  I would appreciate all the energy of Wisdom that you can throw in my direction!!!!

I respect and agree with your HP's decision not to read a found or lost BoS. I was faced with something similar, although it was not a BoS, it was a book of ritual sacred to my dad. He was a freemason and after his death my mother had held onto all of his things. One of those things was his book of ritual. In all the years after his passing I never once looked in that book because I respected my dad and knew they were suppose to be secret.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 08, 2012, 06:50:41 PM
Good for you, you really "get it".  Few would have that maturity.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 08, 2012, 07:15:09 PM
Eris is suggesting rather strongly to me, that the keeper's of Gardner's original BoS, have pretty big concerns over people discovering just how involved Crowley really was in the birthing process of Wicca. I can't see it going down too well if TBW Covens have to accept Crowley alongside Gardner as co Parent of all things Wicca. 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 08, 2012, 07:47:33 PM
Eris is suggesting rather strongly to me, that the keeper's of Gardner's original BoS, have pretty big concerns over people discovering just how involved Crowley really was in the birthing process of Wicca. I can't see it going down too well if TBW Covens have to accept Crowley alongside Gardner as co Parent of all things Wicca. 

I'm thinking it would disrupt any harmony they might have.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 08, 2012, 09:11:57 PM
Serpentium - Ewww.  They were acquaintances but Gardner was more heavily influenced by Masonry and Rosicrucianism than the Golden Dawn.  There is no evidence, say the BTW historians, that the two met more than a couple of times.  That's the story and I'm stickin' with it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 08, 2012, 09:17:52 PM
Serpentium - Ewww.  They were acquaintances but Gardner was more heavily influenced by Masonry and Rosicrucianism than the Golden Dawn.  There is no evidence, say the BTW historians, that the two met more than a couple of times.  That's the story and I'm stickin' with it.

Oh this thread is about to get terribly interesting. I was gonna log off but I may have to stick around now.


(http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.6608327.6509/lp,375x360,b,s,UG9wY29ybiBBbnlvbmU_.jpg)




Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 08, 2012, 09:31:10 PM
I think I will hang out a bit as well....
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 09, 2012, 06:30:38 AM
Seriously, there's little doubt that Gardner was influenced by Crowley but scant evidence that they actually collaborated. But Gardner's long time HPS Doreen Valiente was quite blunt in describing Crowley as repugnant so it sounds as if there may have been some personal interaction.  I honestly don't know the extent but anthropologists and historians within the Craft say it's minimal. Objective research?  I don't know, but those I've read seem very invested in truth. I think a typical attitude is "We don't care where it all came from at this point, it works".
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 09, 2012, 07:14:23 AM
Serpentium - Ewww.  They were acquaintances but Gardner was more heavily influenced by Masonry and Rosicrucianism than the Golden Dawn.  There is no evidence, say the BTW historians, that the two met more than a couple of times.  That's the story and I'm stickin' with it.
Crowley's only interest in The Golden Dawn was to get his Adeptus Minor level confirmed and validated. As soon as the ink was dry, he was off. Networking his already extensive Masonic contacts in Europe and the USA, recruiting for his now, officially sanctioned "Order of the Silver Star". Shortly after this, he was proclaimed as Outer Head of the most powerful Masonic Group in Europe (The OTO) and despite his notorious reputation, he was still the 'cause celebrite' of every Occult group of the day.

If you consider Gardner's need at the time for a "leg up" to get Wicca validated as a credible path, why wouldn't he use his own Masonic links for every bit of help he could get? And as far as setting aside the accepted institutions, and ushering in a new golden age of Occultism and Witchcraft that drew upon Traditional Western practices, but also utilised the meticulously precise "Scientific Method" approach that Crowley innovated, then Crowley and Gardner would have had far more in common than perhaps people realise.

Crowley would have been THE only Man with either the expertise or the inclination to assist Gardner in any practical way with getting Wicca accepted. I'm going to use the unorthodox analogy of Mott the Hoople here. Although they were perfectly capable Musicians, with the dedication, talent, and drive necessary for success, it wasn't until David Bowie helped out by giving them "All the young Dudes" that anyone gave them the time of day.
Result? #1 hit, both sides of the pond. What I'm suggesting, is that Crowley was Gardner's consultant in establishing the structure, ritual, and provenance that has enabled Wicca to become what it is today. The only dynamic and workable "Neo" Traditionalist Pagan system the West ever came up with. To think that Crowley wasn't up to his neck in this, or to imply that Gardner was somehow "above" working with the likes of Crowley, does both these men a dis-service. (Ewww?)


  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/crowley/noobs.png)   
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 09, 2012, 07:19:16 AM
Seriously, there's little doubt that Gardner was influenced by Crowley but scant evidence that they actually collaborated. But Gardner's long time HPS Doreen Valiente was quite blunt in describing Crowley as repugnant so it sounds as if there may have been some personal interaction.  I honestly don't know the extent but anthropologists and historians within the Craft say it's minimal. Objective research?  I don't know, but those I've read seem very invested in truth. I think a typical attitude is "We don't care where it all came from at this point, it works".
Of course Doreen Valiente describes Crowley as "repugnant". She was a woman, therefore  Crowley would have relegated her to sammich duty and sent her back to the nearest kitchen.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 09, 2012, 07:27:27 AM
The "We don't care where it all came from at this point, it works" analogy is eminently pragmatic, but also a little dishonest. Look at the elaborate ritual and pomp of the modern Olympic Torch ceremonies. No one likes to admit that the man who came up with this formula, was Hitler. But hey, it works.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 09, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Well.....that was enlightening.

Thank you Serp. It's always so good having you make a contribution to a discussion on historiography..
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 09, 2012, 07:36:38 PM
Serpentium, source is far less important than intent.  If the brainchild of an evil person has been transformed for a good purpose, isn't that a good thing?
Your posts are startling and did make me question, but after my initial Ewwww, I realized that I don't much care who wrote the rituals, though I still doubt The Great Beast was more than marginally involved. With his ego, do you really think he could have resisted bragging rights?  And there were plenty of other occult sources and societies for Gardner to draw upon.  And he did crib a lot - of that there's no doubt.  My BTW friends think, by the way,that H L MacGregor Matthews had more of an influence than Crowley.
Actually it's apparent even at my level that Ceremonial Magic had a huge influence.  It's just was it a really collaboration with intent on the CMs' sides or were they part of an occult mosaic with similar techniques and common roots?
I admit this does make me want to research more, but Crowley's fingerprints if they are there don't taint Wicca for me.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 09, 2012, 09:44:01 PM
Serp is a well of info and he always makes a good read.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 10, 2012, 05:43:48 AM
Whoops - S L Macgregor Mathers?  I definitely need to do more reading on the subject, Serpentium.  I take this as a positive thing...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 10, 2012, 06:35:36 AM
Serp is a well of info and he always makes a good read.

I agree. ;D Serp definitely sparks a person's curiosity where they want to dig deeper into a subject.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 10, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Crowley - The Great Beast?  :-\
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 10, 2012, 12:46:30 PM
Possibly the beast.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 10, 2012, 01:19:42 PM
Crowley - The Great Beast?  :-\

He made that moniker up himself. Liked his image. Some people use it as an epithet now, without ever realising he's yet again manipulated them into immortalising him in precisely the manner he sought.

He never really moved past being that angry boy whose dad died despite his child's prayers for deliverance. He's been poking his tongue out at the light side ever since really.

Still works too. Look at the knee jerk fearful cringe his very name invokes in so many.

That's his real power. It always was.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 10, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
Thanks for the info :)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 02:09:07 PM
The "Great Beast 666" and "The wickedest man in the World" honorifics originated from Crowley's unsuccessful Libel case against the Daily Mail. When asked by the Judge whether he used the title "Great Beast 666" as a pseudonym, Crowley responded by saying any such nomenclatures were irrelevant, then informed the Judge that "For the purposes of this enquiry, you may call me Little Sunshine".

Crowley certainly courted controversy, he was amoral, promiscuous, and (by today's standards at least) misogynous. He had scant regard for convention, and would readily heap scorn upon the fools and charlatans who fed upon Edwardian Society's appetite for table rappers and so callled 'spiritualists'. He made powerful enemies within the establishment, with scant regard for his own reputation. Admittedly, he was no Angel, but what annoys me, is reading stuff put out today, (mostly from the Christian Right) that describes him as "Evil" or some kind of "King of the Satanists".

Only yesterday, I read on some blog about  American Dynastic Oligarchies, that Crowley was "The leading Satanist of his day" and then went on to casually state that it was well known he "regularly practiced human sacrifice", both claims being entirely spurious, but still believed by a significant minority of idiots.

@ Serafina, To be honest, I don't know for certain to what extent Crowley was involved in the creation of Wicca, nor do I really care. What really spurred me into this level of speculation, was simply that one comment, "Ewww", regarding Crowley. I understand where the motivation behind the comment came from, and I'm not even slightly judging you on it. Nor do I need you to qualify the statement, or apologise in case of any 'offence' I may have taken. (I honestly didn't) It's just that I've known Wiccans who flatly deny that Crowley and Gardner ever even met, let alone collaborated, on the grounds that "Crowley was Evil", and "Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism".
Of course, had you taken this line of repudiation, I may well have been compelled to heap ridicule and scorn upon you, but there's no foul here, no harm done. I'm just glad you're not one of those Wiccan Zealots I alluded to earlier. (Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on fundamentalist nutjobs)   
   
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 10, 2012, 02:39:12 PM
@ Serpantium -
If someone claims to be a Christian, but has never helped a complete stranger for no reason other than that the stranger needed help (The parable of the good Sumaritan) then they're probably full of a lot of themselves and very little of Christ (or their Holy Spirit.. whatever).

And someone who actually is a Christian will show it in their actions. They will be the first to say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". They will not likely be the ones saying "Does anyone else have a stone that I can borrow to throw at this Crowley guy?"

I don't have problems with true Christians, by the way... I have problems with people who claim a name & facade of goodness and then do bad things while using it.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 02:56:56 PM
@ Serpantium -
If someone claims to be a Christian, but has never helped a complete stranger for no reason other than that the stranger needed help (The parable of the good Sumaritan) then they're probably full of a lot of themselves and very little of Christ (or their Holy Spirit.. whatever).

And someone who actually is a Christian will show it in their actions. They will be the first to say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". They will not likely be the ones saying "Does anyone else have a stone that I can borrow to throw at this Crowley guy?"

I don't have problems with true Christians, by the way... I have problems with people who claim a name & facade of goodness and then do bad things while using it.
That's nice. So go tell the Christians.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 10, 2012, 03:09:32 PM
That's nice. So go tell the Christians.
That's a novel idea, but the ones who are the subject of my wrath would just call me "The Devil", and the ones who aren't (well.. they aren't, so why would I tell them..?)

It was a response at your use of the word ``Christian'' (Christian right, and I know what the difference is) to describe someone who goes around calling people "evil" and "Satanist"... not that you probably didn't already know this, but I felt I'd point it out for anyone who didn't (And the ``Christian right'' is one of the biggest misnomers ever to be spoken, as they are generally neither ``Christian'' NOR ``right''...)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 03:21:20 PM
Calling yourself "Lucifer" is just inviting hostility from Christians. So I'd suggest there may be underlying issues there.
Like the need to state your previous point in the first place. It's irrelevant within the context of this thread really.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Firesong on August 10, 2012, 03:47:11 PM
Calling yourself "Lucifer" is just inviting hostility from Christians. So I'd suggest there may be underlying issues there.
Like the need to state your previous point in the first place. It's irrelevant within the context of this thread really.


Lucifer is really a misnomer... I think the original reference is actually referring to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.  Can we just call you "Nubby"?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 10, 2012, 03:51:20 PM
Calling yourself "Lucifer" is just inviting hostility from Christians. So I'd suggest there may be underlying issues there.
Like the need to state your previous point in the first place. It's irrelevant within the context of this thread really.
If this wasn't already so far off from the original intent of this topic that noone could remember what it started out as, then that might be a valid point to make that it's irrelevent in the context...

but seeing as these threads seem to be very liquid in contextual form, I thought that I'd throw out there that it's irrelevent to classify (or exemplify) the people who call Crowley an ``evil-doing satan-worshipping'' nut as ``Christian (anything)''...
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 10, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
I like Nubby... :-p  whatcha say lucifer?  I will be more than happy to change your handle for ya ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 03:56:44 PM
Maybe "Nubbin"?
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 10, 2012, 04:45:10 PM
 The Great Beast was certainly a name Crowley chose for himself. In 1918, Crowley had adopted the name To Mega Therion, which means The Great Beast in Greek, and adds to 666, and, in an article in The International, he asked if any of his readers could find a word or phrase of similar meaning, in Hebrew, which would also add to 666.
 
   He was himself no mean cabalist and had tried all sorts of Hebrew synonyms for "beast" but none of them added to anything like 666; yet the answer came in the mail - Tau, Resh, Yod, Vau, Nun, equal 666 - and it was signed Samuel bar Aiwas.
 
   Aiwas is the Hebrew equivalent of Aiwass, and also adds to 93, the number of his Holy Guardian Angel.

"The Wickedest Man in The World" however was a tabloid headline which caught on. Penned to head the story told by the wife of one of his supplicants. She had absconded from the commune in Italy and it was that article and the resultant outcry in both nations against his hedonistic ways which led Mussolini to deport him and all his followers.

One really does need to wonder at the horror with which that community of the flesh must have aroused in the sheltered Sicilian villagers it was nestled amongst. They'd never seen an outsider and then when they did - what outsiders they were, eh?

That site, Thelema Abbey, is still quite a drawcard for Crowley fans and a few of his murals are still extant on the walls of one room.

(http://foreverandaday.biz/images/Bios/Crowley/Thelema_Abbey.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3O_EVRUb9ro/SDl0FuutXQI/AAAAAAAAAb0/EunscjTb5gQ/s320/crowley3.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3O_EVRUb9ro/SDl0PeutXSI/AAAAAAAAAcE/giSQRjrKl_E/s320/crowley1.jpg)

Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 10, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
Lucifer, doesn't your name have a place as the complement to Diana in the Strega religion?  That's what I figured, but I'm probably not typical.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 10, 2012, 05:22:47 PM
Serpentium, I recall hearing that Crowley's  circle of friends had an unusually high rate of suicide and nervous breakdowns. Is this accurate? Thanks for calling me gently on my assumption that he was "Eeevil".  We have CM's and others who may feel differently{blush}.  Of all people, Witches should be real careful who we call "evil" before the facts are in eh?  But I still suspect he wasn't a swell fella....

Scorched Eartha, that stuff is REALLY interesting.  Thanks.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 06:37:40 PM
Serpentium, I recall hearing that Crowley's  circle of friends had an unusually high rate of suicide and nervous breakdowns. Is this accurate? Thanks for calling me gently on my assumption that he was "Eeevil".  We have CM's and others who may feel differently{blush}.  Of all people, Witches should be real careful who we call "evil" before the facts are in eh?  But I still suspect he wasn't a swell fella....

Scorched Eartha, that stuff is REALLY interesting.  Thanks.
I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me. If you stand next to a flame of that magnitude, you stand a real risk of being burned. It doesn't mean the flame is evil though. Just hot. I have yet to find one verifiable single act of Evil that can be attributed to Crowley. If he showed scant regard for the safety/sanity of others, it just shows he assumed they were aware of their own True Wills, (a point he was always very careful to emphasise to anyone he worked with) He truly was a visionary, and possessed of a singular and selfless mission to improve mankind's position in the grand scheme of things.

If he sometimes lost sight of the very people he was trying to 'share his dream' with, it was not through evil intent, but rather a lack of understanding of how huge a gulf there sometimes was between his vision, and the ability of others to share it. But his impact upon popular culture transcends (as it should) any stricture of morality we can place on it, and his influence upon just about every school of Occult knowledge was so huge, it still hasn't fully been assimilated.


But you are right on one thing, you couldn't really describe him as a very "nice" man. But then "nice" never achieved the kind of goals he set for himself. And those goals weren't concerned with self-aggrandisment, wealth/status or reputation. Rather, his characterisation of himself, and his shameless self promotion were just tools to help him achieve those goals. If he was doing it all for his own benefit, he would have fallen rather messily by the roadside, as a warning to all those who came after. We can see that towards the end of his life, he was plagued by doubt, and was constantly examining his motivation. A lesser man would have put off any such doubts long before death came knocking. And his last words, (allegedly) before giving up the ghost, were "I am perplexed". And even if that isn't true, it is fitting.

SE, In Crowley's "Diary of a Drug Fiend" (still the best book ever written on the nature of addiction) he fictionalises his ideal of himself with brutal honesty, (using at least three peripheral characters  ::)  ) and in the last third of the book, gives a working hypothesis of the "Abbey of Thelema", and the intent he had behind it's creation. Admittedly, it differs greatly in it's description from other accounts, but it does demonstrate beautifully the gulf between his own intent, and other's perceptions (or lack of) regarding his vision. A good read, anyway. I always found his 'fiction' far more instructive than his theory anyway.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 06:50:29 PM
Lucifer, doesn't your name have a place as the complement to Diana in the Strega religion?  That's what I figured, but I'm probably not typical.
As Lucifer, Son of the morning, it represents the rise and fall of the planet Venus, just before the dawn. This male/female dichotomy was consolidated in the "Androgene of Mendes", the blueprint for the "Baphomet" of the Templars. The "Horns" of the Christian Devil were a misunderstood reference to the shape that the rising and falling that Venus describes on the horizon. (in the Northern hemisphere)  Which is an arc, similar to a pair of horns.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 10, 2012, 07:03:25 PM
Ah,  I assumed the horns had something to do with a Pagan fertility god a la Cernunnos.  This site is expanding my Outer Court parameters!  You know how the universe seems to send small gifts inexplicably your way when you first discover Paganism (Craft in my case)?  The most amazing,interesting info seems to come during an esoteric training period.  OK, so I did set up the situation by being on a Pagan site, but allow me my fantasies!
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 10, 2012, 08:15:15 PM
Lucifer literally translates into "light-bringer" (or symbolically translates into "enlightening one").

The Strega do consider Diana & Lucifer to be the parents of Aradia, but in this context it's more likely that they're referring to Apollo (who was the Greek "light-bringer" [or enlightening one])

It is also a reference to Venus in the nightsky.

It's also been used as a reference to the Judeo-Christian angel of light (which is a misclassification?) who later becomes "Satan" (the antagonist of the Christian Bible).


I use it (mainly) for it's literal or symbolic translation described in line one: "light-bringer"
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 10, 2012, 08:48:23 PM
How many Lucifers does it take to change a light bulb?

None, we have light a plenty, thanks very much. (Although one more bulb can't hurt)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 11, 2012, 04:06:23 PM
Lucifer although a few Strega traditions do include the Roman Lucifer in their pantheons the
majority of Italian Witches employ the names Diana and Dianus for their God and Goddess.
Diana has may other names by which she is known and worshipped among the Strega. Depending
upon the divininty desired, she may be called Tana, Losna, or Atimite. In some traditions she
also bears the name Jana. Likewise, Dianus is known by the names Tanus, Poloces (Pollux), or Janus. He is also called Cornunno--Latin for " the Horned One".
In Roman mythology Diana was the goddess of the moon and Lucifer the solar god.

I find the Strega very interesting and of considerable antiquity. The Strega say there must always be one to tend the campfire and perform the rituals season to season or Nature will withdraw
from humankind.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: C_A on August 11, 2012, 06:54:42 PM
I am going to interject one thing here, and ONLY one.

ANYTHING listed as "La Vecchia Religione" or "Aradian" or "Arician" or in ANY way associated with that particular "auteur" or his ilk is on par with the scribblins of $RW.  Period.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: marisol on August 11, 2012, 07:08:17 PM
Ok C_A
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Lark on August 12, 2012, 03:14:27 PM
All I can say to this is AMEN!!


I am going to interject one thing here, and ONLY one.

ANYTHING listed as "La Vecchia Religione" or "Aradian" or "Arician" or in ANY way associated with that particular "auteur" or his ilk is on par with the scribblins of $RW.  Period.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 12, 2012, 04:30:39 PM
SilverRavenWolf has done great deal to raise the public's awareness of Wicca over recent years, and it's a bit unfair of you to lampo . . . . . . . . nope, sorry, it's no good, even my Trolling skills aren't up to carrying this off with any credibility.

She should be subjected to some of those 17th Century Witchgame things, like a Ducking Stool, or a good Witchpinning.  Or examined for "Marks" etc. If she continues to churn out her drivel, then she really should be burned at a stake, somewhere nice. (Bids now being taken, for suggested Host locations)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: serafina on August 12, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
Maybe we could tie her to Edain McCoy and dunk them both?  A two-fer?  Oh no, quick, do a freezer spell to banish the negativity--------
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 12, 2012, 04:54:45 PM
Negativity? How can an idea like that be anything other than positive? It would make a great family day out, and raise peoples opinions of everyone concerned. The public relations opportunities alone justify their immediate non-judicial immolation. It may even set a precedent for similar creative ways to 'retire' irritating or odious people in the public eye.

And what a fitting way to clean up the 'grubbier' parts of your Political system? Therer's a couple more Witches in DC that would go up a treat. Bachmann for instance, (intelligence committee?) Hilarity Clintosterone? There's one 'woman' who was born to burn! That horrible Coulter woman too. She'll go up a treat! Let me know when you arrange it, and I'll try to schedule Cherie Blair for you too.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 12, 2012, 05:02:52 PM
Negativity? How can an idea like that be anything other than positive? It would make a great family day out, and raise peoples opinions of everyone concerned. The public relations opportunities alone justify their immediate non-judicial immolation. It may even set a precedent for similar creative ways to 'retire' irritating or odious people in the public eye.

And what a fitting way to clean up the 'grubbier' parts of your Political system? Therer's a couple more Witches in DC that would go up a treat. Bachmann for instance, (intelligence committee?) Hilarity Clintosterone? There's one 'woman' who was born to burn! That horrible Coulter woman too. She'll go up a treat! Let me know when you arrange it, and I'll try to schedule Cherie Blair for you too.

Burnin' Down "The House" indeed.

There's more than a few men could be added to the conflagration too just quietly.  Newt Gingritch for a start - that amount of blubber would stoke the flames rather well.

And the hot air coming out of the press gallery could fan it nicely.


Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 12, 2012, 05:20:23 PM
I think Dick Cheney should definitely be made an  example of too.And Dirty Ricky Santorum. Maddy Allbright, and Condy. Colon Growl. Oliver North too. I bet he thinks everyone's forgotten what he did. People's estimation of Wiccans would skyrocket if you could swing the TV rights for this.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 12, 2012, 05:24:00 PM
Can we dig Reagan up?

And for an international flavour...Maggie???
Title: Re: LINEAGED?direction.
Post by: marisol on August 13, 2012, 05:04:47 PM
Peoples estimation would swing yeah in the wrong direction. We need to spread these events out.
Like once a week with tv coverage.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 15, 2012, 04:40:39 PM
Can we dig Reagan up?

And for an international flavour...Maggie???
I very nearly suggested that very same thing myself! (Digging Reagan up) but decided it was a little tasteless.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 15, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
Can we dig Reagan up?

And for an international flavour...Maggie???
I very nearly suggested that very same thing myself! (Digging Reagan up) but decided it was a little tasteless.

Yes he was...but not as tasteless as Nancy - throw that old beeotch on and all.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on August 18, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
You all think to small , if you want to do it right then you must get rid of all of them at the same time ; then start with a clean slate. Also no burning to much foul pollutants . What you need is a giant microwave.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 18, 2012, 08:20:57 PM
You all think to small , if you want to do it right then you must get rid of all of them at the same time ; then start with a clean slate. Also no burning to much foul pollutants . What you need is a giant microwave.

I like the way you think.

 ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on August 18, 2012, 08:37:30 PM
SE , your such a dear . Any time you want to go hunting , we can go after your ex I'll bring the party favor's ;)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 18, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
SE , your such a dear . Any time you want to go hunting , we can go after your ex I'll bring the party favor's ;)

Oh cool - He's about 6ft 2, reddish brown hair and beard that's greying rather rapidly. He has broa....
og bugger it. If you see a giant  twat and its ego enters your field of vision about two days before the entity itself - it's him.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: oldghost on August 18, 2012, 09:52:14 PM
What part do you want for your trophy.
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 20, 2012, 09:58:28 AM
You all think to small , if you want to do it right then you must get rid of all of them at the same time ; then start with a clean slate. Also no burning to much foul pollutants . What you need is a giant microwave.
They tried that microwave thing already in the early 80's, with Ron, and Maggie. Maggie's still going, like a blue-rinsed clockwork Ghengis Khan.

And Ron? Well, for a long time they couldn't tell if he was dead or not. So they buried him anyway. That would have been one political comeback you didn't need. Zomby Republicans? The GoP are bad enough as it is, without the emphasis on "Braaaiiins". 
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: lucifer on August 20, 2012, 10:04:35 AM
You all think to small , if you want to do it right then you must get rid of all of them at the same time ; then start with a clean slate. Also no burning to much foul pollutants . What you need is a giant microwave.
They tried that microwave thing already in the early 80's, with Ron, and Maggie. Maggie's still going, like a blue-rinsed clockwork Ghengis Khan.

And Ron? Well, for a long time they couldn't tell if he was dead or not. So they buried him anyway. That would have been one political comeback you didn't need. Zomby Republicans? The GoP are bad enough as it is, without the emphasis on "Braaaiiins".
The democrats are just as bad as the republicans if you weren't aware (You're not even from the US, though, so it's not that important).

The goal of a two-party system is to divide people and create division within the populace so that they're too distracted to realize that it's really the politicians and party bosses who are ALL OF OUR ENEMIES. They steal from all of us, they are doing nothing good. They legislate to make themselves (or some private interest who's pocket their in) rich.

Really... if you want to get rid of the politicians, I'd say GO FOR IT, but you can't forget such priceless losers as Al "I invented the internet and global warming" Gore and John "I couldn't even beat Bush and everyone already hated him" Kerry

::edit::
And did anyone care to mention Ross Perot yet? He sure is a waste of time and space if ever there was one

::edited::
changed dissention into division. The goal is division
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Serpentium on August 20, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
Being the kind of animal that sees and works with patterns (and their implications) I'm well aware of the purpose a two party system engenders. A dynamic most Americans still seem totally ignorant of. And although it's getting clearer now to many of you, I'm almost afraid that it's too late.

Our British socio-political model uses a dominant triumverate, (Crown, Church, and State) to keep party political aspirations in a manageable place. Unfortunately, the Crown has been compromised by Reptiles, the Church, emasculated by Iconoclasts, and the State, infiltrated by those who would enact the rite of the Fasces. (Ro-mans, not Hu-mans) So we'll just have to see how it all pans out, won't we? Heil, Caeser!
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/emotes/paladin.gif)
Title: Re: LINEAGED?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 20, 2012, 04:43:49 PM
Lets get this one back on track.  We have a politics forum somewhere...