Celtic Connection Forums

Spiritual Connection => Pagan Q and A => Topic started by: Firesong on July 26, 2012, 02:05:35 PM

Title: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Firesong on July 26, 2012, 02:05:35 PM
Herein you will find one of the best references for traditional pre-Christian Paganism I've ever seen; it was off the web for awhile, but at least for now, it's available again.  Check it out....

Traditional Paganism (http://web.archive.org/web/20010722135014/www.crosswinds.net/~wolfbane/)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on July 26, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
oooh! Just my cup of tea.

Now let me return the favour.

These 4 videos are awesome. Neil Oliver is a Lecturer in History and quite the BBC star as well. He's an amazing historian and a great film maker. The archaeology and the scholarship behind the discussions of pagan burial rites, religious practice and holy sites is second to none.

The political history of that period is intrinsically tied to the practices of the old faiths and this is so much more approachable for the non academic than a lot of the historiography available in book form.

 A History of Ancient Britain.

Takes us From the Ice Age to the Bronze Age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rTqBjMn1w4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJEDGQdt9Is&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgczBAp2bW4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Icvni0TbFA&feature=relmfu


Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 26, 2012, 04:02:33 PM
Thanks for the link brother.  SE, I will watch your links later on tonight.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: oldghost on July 27, 2012, 08:32:43 AM
Very good Firesong , thanks much for the link.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on July 27, 2012, 12:00:40 PM
If you're interested in the ways in which archaeology is able to inform us of the religious practices of our pagan ancestors, this is a fabulous Facebook Group dedicated to investigating and preserving important pagan sites.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pagans-for-Archaeology/32777950029

They're esp active in campaigns to prevent re-burying pagan remains which are often found in places where development applications are pending. Pagan grave sites are not regarded as anything like as politically sensitive as Christian cemeteries are and in the UK especially, where land is always in short supply, thousands of such sites have been destroyed in recent years without proper investigations and little or no pressure to preserve them.

Where the written record is in such short supply as it is with Celtic pagan history, archaeological evidence is truly priceless.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on July 27, 2012, 04:23:55 PM
Thanks SE for the link.  I will "like" the page the next time I am on FB.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Serpentium on July 28, 2012, 05:46:45 AM
Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as)


*  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on July 28, 2012, 08:14:05 AM
Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as)


*  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc)

How come you haven't shown me THIS before??
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Serpentium on July 28, 2012, 08:30:51 AM
Or you could check out Julian Cope's (Yes, that Julian Cope*) wonderful series, "The Modern Antiquarian" made to compliment his book of the same name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as)


*  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkrkcoTILc)

How come you haven't shown me THIS before??
I have. Honest. But it's obviously slipped your mind.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on July 31, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
Well, by the definition they give, I am not a traditional pagan either. Nor do I want to be. The whole exclusivity they have forbids it. I'll tell you this much too, the ancient Celts would not have fit into their group anymore than I.

The Celts mined for iron. They dug into the earth to create structures, some believe, were for worship. They cut down trees to build and fashion items. They hunted for meat and went to war to obtain that which their surroundings could not provide. The Celts also seemed to be a little nomadic. They moved if their survival was contingent upon it. They had no affinity for a specific plot of land. Affinity for nature, most likely (by the Gods and Goddesses worshipped), but a particular area, I don't think so.

I don't think they abused the land, but they did not treat it with kid gloves either. I believe they only took what they needed, like most ancient, nature based, farming civilizations did. They did what they had to do to survive and showed appreciation for the things they did have to the Gods and Goddesses. I also believe they looked to the Gods and Goddesses for guidance when things went wrong.

These are just my personal viewpoints and I'm sure they will have probably upset someone, though once again that isn't my intent.

Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Firesong on July 31, 2012, 02:30:27 PM
Well, by the definition they give, I am not a traditional pagan either. Nor do I want to be. The whole exclusivity they have forbids it. I'll tell you this much too, the ancient Celts would not have fit into their group anymore than I.

The Celts mined for iron. They dug into the earth to create structures, some believe, were for worship. They cut down trees to build and fashion items. They hunted for meat and went to war to obtain that which their surroundings could not provide. The Celts also seemed to be a little nomadic. They moved if their survival was contingent upon it. They had no affinity for a specific plot of land. Affinity for nature, most likely (by the Gods and Goddesses worshipped), but a particular area, I don't think so.

I don't think they abused the land, but they did not treat it with kid gloves either. I believe they only took what they needed, like most ancient, nature based, farming civilizations did. They did what they had to do to survive and showed appreciation for the things they did have to the Gods and Goddesses. I also believe they looked to the Gods and Goddesses for guidance when things went wrong.

These are just my personal viewpoints and I'm sure they will have probably upset someone, though once again that isn't my intent.

I'm not upset... LOL. but what are your references?  Ever hear of Cromm Crúaich?  The ancient Celts fit in very well with traditional Paganism, as did the Germanic tribes.  Why would they not?  The ancient Celts practiced blood sacrifice, both real and ritual.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on July 31, 2012, 04:30:50 PM
The original Jews and Christians stoned women for adultery and put rape victims to death too, but you don't hear anyone calling for a label of "NeoJudaism" or NeoChristianity" do you?

The essence and strength of paganism has always been its ability to adapt to new political and scientific developments without losing contact with the gods. If anything, it was the later Christianity which showed itself unwilling to adapt. When those ancient Greeks were making discoveries about the Cosmos and mathematics which they incorporated into their understanding of the celestial planes, that could well have been one point where we start to see "NeoPaganism" emerge, don't you think?

It's not as if developments in science and mathematics stood still for Millennia and then at some stage around 1700 some blokes with telescopes and slide rules burst upon the scene, throwing all previously held belief systems out the window. There was a continuum of progress and development and people's beliefs and practices adapted to those.

The Inquisition was the institution which attempted to halt progress rather than follow along with it - and even the Roman Church eventually came along as well....though it took a good few centuries (wasnt it Vatican II where evolution was finally accepted?) - and many of the modern evangelicals still have a lot of trouble comprehending that an "ape-like common ancestor" is NOT saying "Great Uncle Harold was a monkey"



- though he may well have been. Everyone's got some relatives they'd refer to be able to prune from the family tree.
 ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: marisol on July 31, 2012, 06:22:39 PM
The ancient Celts did as every tribe- survive. What is your point? What did you expect?
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 01, 2012, 11:18:16 PM
I guess I should have explained myself better. For that I am sorry.

The "Traditional Pagans" referenced the Celts. They, in a fashion IMO, gave the impression that they were living life as the Celts had, but that didn't quite match up for me.

They said they were caretakers of the Earth...they would never mine for silver or stones. They basically blasted anyone who uses silver or stones in their rituals. But the Celts had to have gotten iron from somewhere (mining?), and what about all the stones moved to make circles, and tombs, and alleged sacred places? What about the trees they would have had to cut down to fashion weapons, and homes, etc. etc. etc? None of that could be classed as earth friendly.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

The Celts may not have destroyed the land, but they didn't seem too worried about drawing from it what they needed or wanted either. This is where the whole doing what they had to do to survive comes in. They didn't have the luxury of being as picky as this group seems to be. By this alone, the actual Celts would not have been accepted by this group, or most of us for that matter. 

Next, they mentioned their "sacred land". The land on which they live. Land passed down through time. Okay, fine and dandy, no problem. I'm happy for them, but surely they can not think the Celts valued a specific area. After all, the Celts left Germany and went into France (Gaul). From there they went into Wales and then gradually into Ireland. Seems like they valued freedom and their own way of life more than a particular piece of land. So this didn't add up for me either.

Next, they said the only way a person can be a Traditional Pagan was if they were born into it or married one of them. They also said that there is no way anyone who claims to be a "Traditional Pagan", and lives outside of their community, is a traditional pagan. Well, what the heck do they class as a "Traditional Pagan"? And what gives them the right to think they can coin the two words together? Especially since the term "pagan" is technically a more modern concept. The ancients did not call themselves pagans.

Not only that, but I knew the definition of "traditional" and "pagan" long before I ever heard of this group, or village, or whatever the heck they are. Maybe someone classes themselves a traditional pagan because they are trying, to the best of their ability, to commune with their deities as close to the ways the ancients would have. Maybe they have their more modern house laid out like the ancients had theirs. Is that not traditional in it's own way? It's kind of like turkey being a tradition of Thanksgiving or a May Pole is on Beltane. But according to them, no one but them is a traditional pagan.

 No they aren't full of themselves. Not in the least.  ::)

Also, they claimed to put the website up to get the record straight because there were people claiming to be one of them. Okay, who are those people. Where are these claims? Or where they referring to those who say they are traditional pagans. Once again, it makes me question what their definition of a traditional pagan is. And why the heck do they have the website in the first place. Why bother telling anyone about themselves at all if they are so exclusive? Why come off as, IMO, so high and mighty? It makes no sense to me.

I got the impression, and it's probably just me, but it almost seems like they were basically inferring their way is the only way--kind of like a promised people type of thing--and the rest of us could go to rot. Well, I had never heard of them until this thread, so I found it all the be rather irritating to say the least.

Now I may have completely misunderstood their website, but I don't think I did. So neither I, the Celts, or most of the people on this message board would be in their league.

Also, instead of having a hissy fit over others using the term traditional pagan, which can be a very broad description of ones self depending on the situation, maybe they should come up with a name for their little group. There are Wiccans, they call themselves Wiccans, and they seem to be doing all right with a specific name. Then the various Christian religions seemed to give themselves specific names, and they're doing okay. Maybe these people should do the same.

Essentially, they got on my nerves and I was spouting off about it. LOL

I'm sorry this is so long, but it was the only way I felt I could convey myself more clearly.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: marisol on August 02, 2012, 11:50:59 AM
Firesong thank-you, very interesting site. I do see Traditional Pagans are a bit different than
Modern Pagans. Especially in the history regarding blood sacrifice. Artemis was a very dark goddess which I'm sure was avoided if possible. Her need for blood sacrifice included death.
Today if blood sacrifice is called for the cut is viewed as the surrender to god or goddess. I
hope, although I don't know all.

I'll have to do more research on Traditional Pagans.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 02, 2012, 06:17:02 PM
The first site on that link had something to say which resonated really deeply with me and in relation to my Aboriginal heritage; my understanding and my experience of Australian Indigenous people's spirituality.


Quote
The "magic" of the Traditional Path is the magic of the heart of the ground, and the unseen spirit of mankind and Nature- and its metaphysics are not simple to grasp, nor do they come easily to those who have their understandings of "magic" tainted by the new-age. All the same, those who can master the Traditional Path"s many tests and trials can come to a destiny that humans can scarce dream about or comprehend- the unfolding of the human being into the fulfillment of Fate herself.

But this is not possible without the "Ground level" work of coming into a true reciprocal and conscious relationship with the Land and the Old Powers that dwell within. This is the first work of the essential human, and when this work is accomplished, the other will be, as well. Traditional Paganism, in common with many traditional "folk" religions around the world, is a spiritual path that deals with the Land itself as the most sacred manifestation of a timeless reality, which is full of many great powers, including those worshipped as Gods by our ancestors, and the spirits of the dead, who forever fill Nature and make her the repository of all the Wisdom and power of our shared past.

Any path that deals with direct, simple experience of the "gateways" between the human consciousness and the immense, eldritch powers and spaces that exist within the body of the Land all around us, and any path that can approach these powers with a respect born out of spontaneous and genuine love, can claim to be "Traditional", on some level. The human mind can experience many things, and the language of symbol is the key to unlocking this latent power in the mind. Traditional Paganism, like all Traditional spiritual paths, relies on symbols found in myths, folktales and folksongs, and in oral lore, which lead the mind into the right "place" to undergo a transformative and rather indescribable experience, which is the heart of True initiation.

Now this doesn't mean to those who follow such traditions that you can't use anything from the land. Never cut down a tree, mine for mineral ore, kill an animal. Far from it. These things are put there for you. They are meant to sustain you. The proper, respectful use of them is what will ensure the continuity so essential to such traditional ways of life. What it means in terms of Aboriginal spiritual life is that whenever you do any of these things there are rituals and ceremonies to be observed, wherein you give notice to the land that you are aware of her gifts to you - of your dependence upon and connection to her. Some complex and needing communal ceremonial effort, but many simple, silent and solitary too. Accomplished by things as seemingly meaningless to outsiders as the way in which you cut the tree or the order in which you butcher the carcass. Which fruits you leave and which you take in what season.

Caring for the land and its bounty is central to cultures like this, for the spirit of the people is only alive while the land flourishes. I may have told some of you this before, but I'll repeat it here because it's very pertinent to what I feel this passage is trying to convey, though the writer is coming at the subject from her own Celtic tradition. 

My middle name Myee. That's a Waradjuri word which means "I am made of this land" or "I belong to this land" Belong to  not in sense of ownership as westerners understand that concept. Rather "belong to" as in being a part of it. Being "of" it. The land and the people are interdependent and the failure to nurture, honour and care for the land is as basic a betrayal of one's duties as would be the failure to nurture and care for their own child or to honour your own old people. The people are not separate from the land. The land and the gods are not two entities. All are part of the whole. None can continue to "be" without the others.

So you cut down the trees you need to build a shelter. You mine only those minerals required to make tools to survive. You kill an animal only when you need to provide food for your kinship group - and you always in doing so are giving thanks to the land, to the gods or spirits who placed those resources there for you. The amassing of useless possessions; building of unnecessarily ornate structures, killing for sport or trophy taking - that is what is badwrong in cultures such as these.

The stones for the Celtic circles may have been transported many miles to the places they were set, but they were unhewn. Carefully selected for size and shape and composition, but unsullied by masons. The OT recalls this when it says that a temple must be made of unhewn stones. . Not made even and decorated with carvings of figures. More evidence of how monotheists did not so much replace paganism, as incorporate and corrupt its teachings. Tools were made by the users, not forged and sold or traded for a profit. Jewellery was ceremonial and for a purpose, not acquired simply to show that you had more bling  than your neighbour.

The taking of these things needed for survival, both physical and spiritual is a source of joy and a celebration of life. An affirmation of the spirits who provided them. If some people, as NPM found, believe they are continuing traditional paganism by refusing to partake of any of the bounty of the land they sprang from, then they are very badly misunderstanding the cultures they are claiming to follow in the path of. "Reciprocal" is the key word the author of this passage uses to describe the taking of resources - in such cultures you never harvest without giving back - Be that in ritual thanks, in a conscious effort to not kill a breeding female animal or by performing a practical action, such as the Aboriginals burning of bushland, in the knowledge that propagation of most native plants will only take place in the extreme temperatures engendered by a large scale fire.

That attitude of taking what is needed and no more; of giving back and nurturing the realm from which its taken is not the sole property of any one group of people, following one given belief set. It is a goal which all of us who seek a nature based path attempt to aim for. Modern environmentalists, with their emphasis on sustainability are very much of this tradition, though many of them would not use a ritual or a "pagan" label to describe their way of life. The land doesn't care what they call themselves. She only knows what they do to honour her.

I actually found it quite beautiful to know that other cultures and other modern descendents of those cultures have the same understanding of what here in traditional Aboriginal language is known as "spirit of place."

So thank you again FS for those links. I'm still working my way through them all. I expect there's a great wellspring of beauty and wisdom within many of them, But I keep going back to that passage and re-reading it because it expresses so much so clearly..... and in so few simple words.

So I wanted to share with you what I had taken from it.

Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 02, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd8/Spirit1963_pictures/mittens-1.gif)


After a post like that, I really would prefer not to see you refer to yourself as a troll again.  :) 
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 02, 2012, 07:51:17 PM
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd8/Spirit1963_pictures/mittens-1.gif)


After a post like that, I really would prefer not to see you refer to yourself as a troll again.  :)

Just payin' rent for the space under your bridge, innit??

 ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 02, 2012, 08:40:11 PM
Scorched Eartha,

Thank you for your post. I enjoyed reading it and it helped me by seeing your perspective. I hope you do not think I have a problem with those who wish to care for and preserve the Earth and use what it provides reasonably and responsibly. I have no problem with that at all. In fact, I wish more people would.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 02, 2012, 09:58:55 PM
No NPM I didn't think that at all.

But I do think that the people you encountered with their "paganer than thou" attitude that nothing can be used or mined or cut down or skinned without offending some principle of pure earth spirit had their heads rammed right up their own arses...which may well have explained why so much shit came out of their mouths.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 02, 2012, 10:42:36 PM
SE

I wasn't referring to people I had actually met, though I have met people like that. LOL. I was referring to a portion of the website on Traditional Pagans. I may have misunderstood something. I'll have to go back and reread it. I do remember reading something about them being caretakers of the land. I have no problem with that, but I could have sworn they made references to mining and raping the earth for silver or something like that. I felt them insulting other pagans was uncalled for. I couldn't see the difference between mining for silver, which many use for ritual today (I personally use silver for protection of I and my family), and iron, which had been used for weaponry.

Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 02, 2012, 11:08:14 PM
I have massive problems with open cut mining, much under sea mining and coal seam gas mining. That IS rape of the  land, done for greed and profit and little to do with sustaining life. It will in the long run ensure that life here is unsustainable. These resources are finite. We cannot take and take and take and expect that the motherlode will never be exhausted.

Asso I have issues with large scale commercial fisheries, trawling for thousands of lobsters to grace the tables of restaurants for the rich who would have neither the wit, nor the wherewithal to fish for their own.

Possibly that's where your misunderstanding took root. To exploit a resource, to trawl it, to plunder and raid the earth for her wealth - that's evil incarnate. No sentient being could say it's possible to live without using a portion of the earth's resources and riches - but nor is it possible to pass on to the next generations a planet which has been asset stripped and expect that they will be able to live well upon it.

Our purpose here, our one truly sacred duty is to care for the earth. To live upon it not as if we own it. For we surely do not; but as if we are guarding it for those who come after.

For that is what we are doing.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 03, 2012, 05:51:18 AM
I personally have a huge problem with sport hunting for trophies.   If you ain't eating it, why kill it?
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Serpentium on August 03, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
I personally have a huge problem with sport hunting for trophies.   If you ain't eating it, why kill it?
  ???  "But it was coming straight at us"!  :-p
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 03, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
I personally have a huge problem with sport hunting for trophies.   If you ain't eating it, why kill it?
  ???  "But it was coming straight at us"!  :-p

The great Englsih hunter

"He kilt him a hedgehog, when he was 43!!"
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: lucifer on August 03, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
Our purpose here, our one truly sacred duty is to care for the earth. To live upon it not as if we own it. For we surely do not; but as if we are guarding it for those who come after.

For that is what we are doing.
It's called stewardship. It means that we acknowledge that this land is not ours (if you really think that you own property, think again. The Goddess and God own it... you're just looking after it [hopefully] while you're here).

It's something that the native people here in America understood pretty well. The land gives you everything that you need, but only if you respect it enough not to take more than you need.

I'm personally not looking forward to the rebirth that happens in the post-technological hell which we (as a species) seem bent on creating for ourselves... (and even if you don't believe in rebirth, know that our children will be paying for these mistakes long after we're gone)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: marisol on August 03, 2012, 02:00:19 PM
It would seem to me that Traditional Pagans and Ancient Celts can be hard to compare due to
the span of time between them. The Celts had a much harder life than Pagans today as far as
actual physical survival went.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Firesong on August 03, 2012, 02:11:28 PM
It would seem to me that Traditional Pagans and Ancient Celts can be hard to compare due to
the span of time between them. The Celts had a much harder life than Pagans today as far as
actual physical survival went.

How so...?  The ancient Celts were Traditional Pagans...
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: lucifer on August 03, 2012, 02:26:13 PM
It would seem to me that Traditional Pagans and Ancient Celts can be hard to compare due to
the span of time between them. The Celts had a much harder life than Pagans today as far as
actual physical survival went.

How so...?  The ancient Celts were Traditional Pagans...
That's semantically (and/or gramtically) wrong. The ancient Celts might have been traditional Pagans, but they were not ``Traditional Pagans''. I'd personally like to think of them as one group of original Pagans, though.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Firesong on August 03, 2012, 02:52:03 PM
It would seem to me that Traditional Pagans and Ancient Celts can be hard to compare due to
the span of time between them. The Celts had a much harder life than Pagans today as far as
actual physical survival went.

How so...?  The ancient Celts were Traditional Pagans...
That's semantically (and/or gramtically) wrong. The ancient Celts might have been traditional Pagans, but they were not ``Traditional Pagans''. I'd personally like to think of them as one group of original Pagans, though.

Just curious... why would you think the ancient Celts weren't what we refer to as traditional Pagans?  By traditional Pagan, I mean a pre-Christian Pagan...
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: lucifer on August 03, 2012, 02:58:45 PM
Just curious... why would you think the ancient Celts weren't what we refer to as traditional Pagans?  By traditional Pagan, I mean a pre-Christian Pagan...
The word traditional refers to the act of passing something from one generation to the next.

It'd be like refering to the original Thanksgiving as traditional, IMO. It's semantically wrong because it wasn't yet a tradition (as it hadn't yet been passed down). They were pre-Christian Pagans... yes.

I did try to make a point to mention that it was only semantics, though. ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 03, 2012, 03:34:58 PM
That is one of the definitions of traditional.  There are a couple of other ones.  Just sayin'
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 03, 2012, 06:00:02 PM
Just curious... why would you think the ancient Celts weren't what we refer to as traditional Pagans?  By traditional Pagan, I mean a pre-Christian Pagan...
The word traditional refers to the act of passing something from one generation to the next.

It'd be like refering to the original Thanksgiving as traditional, IMO. It's semantically wrong because it wasn't yet a tradition (as it hadn't yet been passed down). They were pre-Christian Pagans... yes.

I did try to make a point to mention that it was only semantics, though. ;)

The Ancient Celts were not a phenomenon which came and went within a few decades. Their society existed for centuries. They passed their faith, their rituals, their holy sites and their  practical lifestyle skills down from one generation to the next.

Which of these generations, in your semantic  (or is that pedantic) opinion were the "original" ones and at what point did they become "Traditional"?

eta: And in my tradition - the Australian aboriginal one, the gods and goddesses (known to us as spirits btw) did not own the land either...the land owned all of us - them in especial.

It is my understanding that in many NA cultures the same basic premise is held to be an eternal truth:

Wars are fought to see who owns the land, but in the end it possesses us. Who dares say he owns it, is he not buried beneath it?
– Cochise, Chiricahua Apache

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
– Ancient Native American Proverb

We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love… and then we return home.
– Australian Aboriginal Proverb

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
– Chief Seattle

Anywhere is the center of the world.
– Black Elk, Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux

There is only one great thing
The only thing
To live to see the great day that dawns
And the light that fills the world
.
– Anonymous Inuit


And an old Irish saying that my Gran used often to quote - from her gran and prolly hers and all, to speak of how we learn and grow out of the wisdom and experiences of those who came before us:

I scath a chéile a mhaireann na daoine.
( People can only live in each other’s shadows.)

Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: lucifer on August 03, 2012, 06:20:46 PM
The Ancient Celts were not a phenomenon which came and went within a few decades. Their society existed for centuries. They passed their faith, their rituals, their holy sites and their  practical lifestyle skills down from one generation to the next.

Which of these generations, in your semantic  (or is that pedantic) opinion were the "original" ones and at what point did they become "Traditional"?
Before it was a tradition, it was a ritual which was practiced as a means of: Explaining what the sun was, teaching your children how to hunt and gather food (and blessing said food as a thanks to your dieties), etc. etc.

As soon as they became able to say, exactly, that the sun was a ball of burning gas, the ritual of sun-worship became a tradition. As soon as hunting for food became moot (with invent of modern farming techniques) hunting became a tradition.

The originals were the ones who practiced their rituals as a way of sustaining their life and explaining that which they could not explain. The traditionalists are those who, out of respect, celebrate the way of life that their ancestors (or spiritual ancestors) lived without the necessity of doing so as a means of continued living.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 03, 2012, 10:02:22 PM
SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.

As for the use of Traditional, reading the discussion in some ways reinforces my feelings on that part. Traditional is such a broad word, as is pagan, so how can any group call themselves Traditional Pagans but then say no one else can? They can cal themselves whatever they want. I just don't think they should prevent others from using the term if they so chose. It's just too pushy, IMO.

I will say the Celts were traditional. Most cultures are. They had a set way of life, a set way of doing things, and rituals specific onto them. I can not, however, call them pagans. Pagan is a modern term. As far as I am concerned the Celts were ancient ancestors whose ways were clouded and muddled within the annuls of time through various interferences and meddling.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 12:21:55 PM
SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.


The ancient Celts were trophy hunters.They collected the severed heads of their vanquished enemies, and mounted them on short poles, outside their houses. The number of heads denoted one's status and on cold Winter's nights, they would sit around the fire, and recount blow for blow how they slew each one, in boasting competitions.  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/emotes/shok.gif)

"Of great renown was Torik Two-tooth, but I took my mighty axe, Brainbiter, and with one fell blow, split him it twain, from shoulder to hip. The red river did then spurt from his veins like a burst hog, then I cut his ugly head from his twitching corpse. It's the third one on the left, as you walk past my mud hut".

Great thing, tradition, isn't it?
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 04:34:54 PM
Firesong I didn't understand that Celts were being referred to as Traditional Pagans( especially exactly as the ones today). I will go back and reread. Thanks.








t
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Serpentium on August 04, 2012, 09:15:59 PM
Even the term "Celt" can be misleading when applied to "Tradition". Exactly how extensive the Celts really were, and their historical origins are hotly debatable. The standard accepted view that the Celts emerged in Central and Eastern Europe, and spread Eastward as far as the Carpathian basin, and Southwards into the Balkans and Anatolia, is only tenuously supported by evidence. There is no archaeological or textual evidence that supports any Westerly Celtic migration at this time (6th-4th Centuries BC) But the earliest Greek and Roman texts mention that the Celtic language was spoken in the South West of the Iberian peninsula as early as the 8th century BC. 

By the C6th BC, when classical sources begin, there were Celtic speakers in Iberia, Gaul, and (possibly) Britain & Ireland, which suggests the origins of the first Celts were on the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. The later, and well documented Celtic diaspora Eastwards around 400 BC only applied to the inland Eastern and Central European Celts, not the Atlantic communities.

So if the thesis of the Westerly origins of the earliest Celtic culture and tradition is to be accepted, and with the premise that language is the unifying factor for the ethnic origins of an identifiable culture, then the origins of all things "Celtic" actually has it's roots deep in the prehistory of the earliest European Atlantic peoples, and not in central and Eastern Europe at all. Which kind of throws a spanner at the veracity of all Celtic "tradition", as posited by the reconstructionist body of mainstream Celtic Historians.

So it goes. Much of what is held to be Celtic tradition, may actually be inherited from Mesopotamian sources, and was picked up by the Eastern periphery of Celtic peoples due to their Geographical  proximity to these earlier cultures at the time of the first classical references to the Celts.


And the roots of genuine Celtic tradition may very well have been formed half a continent away, and be yet to be empirically examined to any great extent. Food for thought, isn't it?     
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: marisol on August 04, 2012, 09:55:03 PM
Thanks cutie pie that helps some.In reading about these Traditional pagans or Celts they refer to
modern pagans as Wiccans and we know that is not a true discription for all pagans.  Traditionals are just so alien to me, its just difficult for me to put the pieces together. I'll have to read further.
Sorry to seem like such  a dummy. This is very interesting to me, I've just never explored it much
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 05, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
SE,
Thank you for explaining the mining to me. It makes way more sense now, and I have to agree with you. Tearing up the land in such a way is horrible. I dislike how our seas are being ravaged too. Whale hunting? Yuck!

EBS,
I don't care for trophy hunting either. It's one thing to hunt for food, which I don't have a problem with, but to do it to mount a head on a wall is sickening to say the least. At least that's how I feel about it.


The ancient Celts were trophy hunters.They collected the severed heads of their vanquished enemies, and mounted them on short poles, outside their houses. The number of heads denoted one's status and on cold Winter's nights, they would sit around the fire, and recount blow for blow how they slew each one, in boasting competitions.  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/emotes/shok.gif)

"Of great renown was Torik Two-tooth, but I took my mighty axe, Brainbiter, and with one fell blow, split him it twain, from shoulder to hip. The red river did then spurt from his veins like a burst hog, then I cut his ugly head from his twitching corpse. It's the third one on the left, as you walk past my mud hut".

Great thing, tradition, isn't it?

LOL. Yes, tradition is wonderful. Especially when it keeps you fed and your enemies at bay.  ;) I knew they took the heads of their enemies as trophies and piked them in front of their homes, but did they kill animals solely for the trophy or were the trophies just a bonus added to the meat and skins? The waste of meat and skins, et cetera, to garner nothing but a trophy was what I was talking about, sweetie.

Even the term "Celt" can be misleading when applied to "Tradition". Exactly how extensive the Celts really were, and their historical origins are hotly debatable. The standard accepted view that the Celts emerged in Central and Eastern Europe, and spread Eastward as far as the Carpathian basin, and Southwards into the Balkans and Anatolia, is only tenuously supported by evidence. There is no archaeological or textual evidence that supports any Westerly Celtic migration at this time (6th-4th Centuries BC) But the earliest Greek and Roman texts mention that the Celtic language was spoken in the South West of the Iberian peninsula as early as the 8th century BC. 

By the C6th BC, when classical sources begin, there were Celtic speakers in Iberia, Gaul, and (possibly) Britain & Ireland, which suggests the origins of the first Celts were on the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. The later, and well documented Celtic diaspora Eastwards around 400 BC only applied to the inland Eastern and Central European Celts, not the Atlantic communities.

So if the thesis of the Westerly origins of the earliest Celtic culture and tradition is to be accepted, and with the premise that language is the unifying factor for the ethnic origins of an identifiable culture, then the origins of all things "Celtic" actually has it's roots deep in the prehistory of the earliest European Atlantic peoples, and not in central and Eastern Europe at all. Which kind of throws a spanner at the veracity of all Celtic "tradition", as posited by the reconstructionist body of mainstream Celtic Historians.

So it goes. Much of what is held to be Celtic tradition, may actually be inherited from Mesopotamian sources, and was picked up by the Eastern periphery of Celtic peoples due to their Geographical  proximity to these earlier cultures at the time of the first classical references to the Celts.


And the roots of genuine Celtic tradition may very well have been formed half a continent away, and be yet to be empirically examined to any great extent. Food for thought, isn't it?     

Thank you for posting this. I always learn something new when I read your posts. Just goes to show the libraries near me are terrible.  :-p Looks like I may have to purchase books to read. Any recommendations?

Thanks cutie pie that helps some.In reading about these Traditional pagans or Celts they refer to
modern pagans as Wiccans and we know that is not a true discription for all pagans.  Traditionals are just so alien to me, its just difficult for me to put the pieces together. I'll have to read further.
Sorry to seem like such  a dummy. This is very interesting to me, I've just never explored it much

Don't feel bad, babe. The traditional pagan's website has me so confused I don't know my bahookie from a hole in the ground. On one hand, I can clearly see where they are coming from, or at least understand their reasoning. But on the other I still feel like they are flipping everyone the big ole bird. LOL.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 21, 2012, 05:41:07 AM
Another good series of BBC Documentaries. There are 4 of them.
The Pagans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1oZdcXJgNE
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: oldghost on August 21, 2012, 06:28:15 PM
They were not trophy hunters as we know it today , but depending on where they live there was competition to see who could bring in the most or largest game . This was used to see who would be the lead hunter. Every piece of the game was used , could be that the antlers of the largest animal hunted were mount over the door way of the best hunter to let everyone see how great a hunter he/she was.
The origins of the word Pagan comes many from the hated romans , and means someone that lives in the countryside or outside of civilization. Aka children of nature .
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 22, 2012, 09:18:11 AM
Thank you Scorched Eartha and oldghost.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: C_A on August 22, 2012, 09:33:07 AM
I have only watched the first one so far. 

Thank you, SE.  He's nigh as good as Michael Wood or David Starkey.  I'll be researching him further.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: oldghost on August 22, 2012, 04:46:17 PM
You are most welcome NPM .
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: cedhawk on August 25, 2012, 09:06:04 AM
another good links to help me through. ;D
tnx.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: oldghost on August 25, 2012, 11:26:47 PM
Here another one for you cedhawk.       http:// www. croswwinds.net/~wolfbane/ welcome . html .   
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 26, 2012, 07:50:45 PM
Part 3 of that series is missing from that uploader now - but I found another link for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sFdRV3gkUQ
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: cedhawk on August 29, 2012, 09:54:54 AM
oldghost tnx.. i'll check it out. :)
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: oldghost on September 01, 2012, 03:15:29 PM
Anytime ..............
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Mystik Witch on February 20, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
Herein you will find one of the best references for traditional pre-Christian Paganism I've ever seen; it was off the web for awhile, but at least for now, it's available again.  Check it out....

Traditional Paganism (http://web.archive.org/web/20010722135014/www.crosswinds.net/~wolfbane/)

Hi everyone,
Sorry this is so long winded. I have been reading on the traditional paganism website regarding the difference between the two religions. I am wondering and pondering how either one would, (for lack of a better term), fit with me. Can someone please tell me how I would go about deciding which of these religions (if either) I would follow based on the following ideas. I don't want someone to choose one for me. I am just confused as to know how I would decide because there are parts of each that fit very well. You see, when I read the differences between these two religions. I feel drawn to both. Yet both have others I am not drawn to. So I am confused as to how I would know which would be right.

Where I live there are no covens. So there would not be an initiation. I would be a solitary wicca. But I don't agree with all the traditions of a Wicca. I am not pagan by birth, marriage, or invitation. And there are traditions of the Pagan I don't agree with either. With that being said, I have come up with these questions:

Question #1. Can you be part of both Wicca and Pagan, as one religion?

Question #2. Is it possible to do rituals during the day, even for the nightly rituals? This is the only time of day I have to myself that I can practice without prying eyes. As well as, I would need to do these indoors. I am not alone at night and my spouse does not believe in these teachings. He frowns on these ways. So to practice the rituals, phases of the moon and seasons, it is next to impossible at night. (Please don't think I am trying to be difficult, I'm not, just frustrated!).

Question #3.  Do you have to celebrate the phases of the moon and season in order to be a Wiccan or Pagan? I can't find anything about this, and due to the fact I can only practice during the daylight hours. It is very hard to celebrate or enjoy the night time rituals when they are suppose to be celebrated.

I hope no one takes offense of what I have asked, or thinks I am just another individual not wanting to study and learn for myself. I have searched the internet and the forum for the answers to my questions. I have not found them. I would love to be more involved in all aspects of Wiccan, paganism, or whatever religion is right for me. It just doesn't seem like either of these two religions are correct. If there is another type of religion that I am over looking. Would you please tell me so I can study and learn and make my decision? I understand, no one here is willing to tell others what to do. I just am lost as to where to turn from here. For most of my life I've been searching for what is right for me, (that uses similar concepts and beliefs, i.e. beliefs in the Godess and God, magick, castings, seasons, rites, etc. Yet is practiced in the daylight hours and is by a solitary witch). I am not aware of any other kind of religion that uses these teaching other then Wiccan or Paganism. Are there any? If so please tell me!!! I will be happy to study them too.

Thank you for your patience with me. I apologize if I have offended anyone by asking questions that might have already been asked. I promise I won't bother you anymore about this subject.

Blessings to all!
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Draconis Rex on February 20, 2014, 10:52:55 AM
You are asking a similar question to this; "Should I be a Baptist or a Christian?" Christian is a blanket name for the related religions like Baptist.
 
Similarly, Pagan is a blanket term for Wicca, Witchcraft, Druidism, Asatru and many other earth based religions. Paganism is not entirely by itself a religion per se.
 
Being a Pagan is following an Earth/Nature based path, it could be any of those I have mentioned and you may not yet know which path you are to follow. That is okay though, you can just carry on as you are, study and research and eventually your path will reveal itself to you when the time is right.
 
Not sure where the "night time rituals" is coming from, not every pagan is night oriented. many do their thing in daytime as normal some do both.
 
Being a solitary is equally acceptable as being coven oriented also, I myself am Solitary and will probably always be. Being Pagan is a life choice, you don't have to be born to it, or married into it. if you feel a good fit worshipping Nature in all her splendour, or Goddess and God together, then that is the way you should go. As you progress you will learn more and more about it and things will fall more comfortably into place, and possibly including your path.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Mystik Witch on February 20, 2014, 11:13:51 AM
Draco,
As usual, you have calmed my fears. Thank you very much. As for the night time rituals. I was referring to the ceremonies to the moon during Sabbat and others alike. Still, you have answered my questions. I am going to continue as I am and see where my path leads me.

Blessings to you!
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Draconis Rex on February 20, 2014, 11:33:32 AM
Blessings to you also.
 
You are obviously very young on your path so I wouldn't be expecting too much from yourself. There is so very much to be learned, you will find that all of us, no matter how far along we are, are still learning. The pursuit is long and sometimes difficult, but don't let that sway you, it is an enjoyable curve and we all advance at our own rates. there are no exams, no tests, and there are no time limits. Each step you take is a step further forward.
 
I understand what you mean now by night rituals, by all means celebrate the moon in all her aspects but you will find that not all practitioners work by the moon, and those who do usually are happier to work by night. It doesn't mean you have to be sat up until the wee small hours of course, just be aware of her cycle and use those in the rituals you perform that require them. The day of the full moon is in essence the same as the night of the full moon and can be used similarly; remember quite often she can be seen during daylight hours.
 
As far as practising any rituals, I strongly advise keeping them very minor until you have taken the time to study and understand them fully; what they are for, how to perform them, shielding, and most importantly, understanding what the outcomes may be, especially if you do something wrong.  This is not an admonition, I encourage you to learn, but be aware.... read, read, read.... and when you have read all you can, read more.... ;) ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Mystik Witch on February 20, 2014, 11:50:22 AM
Blessings to you also.
 
As far as practising any rituals, I strongly advise keeping them very minor until you have taken the time to study and understand them fully; what they are for, how to perform them, shielding, and most importantly, understanding what the outcomes may be, especially if you do something wrong.  This is not an admonition, I encourage you to learn, but be aware.... read, read, read.... and when you have read all you can, read more.... ;) ;D

Thank you very much. I do appreciate all your advise and knowledge. Yes I have a long way to go but what a journey its going to be!!!! One I look forward to taking. Thank you again, and YES, I will read, read, READ, and then read some more!
Thank you! ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: soulfire on February 20, 2014, 03:06:32 PM
what helped me is to open a new file, write down notes from books or forums that resonated w/ me.  it gave me a clear pic of what I believed.  not what was 'true' or what other ppl would say of how things should be,  it started my BOS, eventually. a witch I knew told me that- best advice ever.
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Mystik Witch on February 21, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
what helped me is to open a new file, write down notes from books or forums that resonated w/ me.  it gave me a clear pic of what I believed.  not what was 'true' or what other ppl would say of how things should be,  it started my BOS, eventually. a witch I knew told me that- best advice ever.

That's actually really funny cause that is exactly what I have done. Great minds think alike!!!!  ;D

Thank you very much for all of  your advise. This has been very helpful and insightful. It has helped me to know I am actually on the right path. That there is really no set way to begin or to end, and that I am not wrong in my pursuit or in my interests. It is so wonderful to know I will find my way as it is suppose to be for ME! So here I go, onward and upward!!!!

Thanks again!!!!! Blessings!  :D
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Firesong on February 26, 2014, 10:58:00 AM
what helped me is to open a new file, write down notes from books or forums that resonated w/ me.  it gave me a clear pic of what I believed.  not what was 'true' or what other ppl would say of how things should be,  it started my BOS, eventually. a witch I knew told me that- best advice ever.

That's actually really funny cause that is exactly what I have done. Great minds think alike!!!!  ;D

Thank you very much for all of  your advise. This has been very helpful and insightful. It has helped me to know I am actually on the right path. That there is really no set way to begin or to end, and that I am not wrong in my pursuit or in my interests. It is so wonderful to know I will find my way as it is suppose to be for ME! So here I go, onward and upward!!!!

Thanks again!!!!! Blessings!  :D

Rather than seeking from other paths, why not just write down a page of exactly what you believe, in relation to gods, the universe, personal interactions, and spiritual truths.  A path that is an extension of those beliefs is always a far better choice than deciding to believe something.

I'm not talking religions here, but core spiritual beliefs; if you're not sure, look for the answer within, not without....
Title: Re: Traditional Paganism
Post by: Valerie on June 13, 2014, 02:30:53 PM
Just reading thru the posts...still looking x