Celtic Connection Forums

Spiritual Connection => Talking Stick => Topic started by: auntygreens on August 12, 2012, 08:40:56 PM

Title: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 12, 2012, 08:40:56 PM
I am not sure this is in the right place.

And these dilemmas are exactly why I needed to come back here.

my first sort of question...

Do you feel it is better to have unbroken faith that is solid or broken faith that you return to that you know will always be bitter sweet?

I don't mean untested faith.  Because I don't think that really exists.

My second question, which came about from the struggle with my third question: If you make Jell-o in the blender and it gets frothy... (and it does.  trust me on this, it does and don't ask WHERE my mind was when I did this) is it still considered Jell-o when the froth gels as froth, or is it considered now mousse?  Because it seems to me that you could do time/problem stop rits with this, using the colors, but also air and water... Just a thought.

My third is the most serious and my "well duh, get online and ask people who have also had similar thoughts" moment.  I feel I am in an ethical quandary.  I am trying to decide what is right for me.  Not who is right or who is wrong.

I am a bookkeeper.  A by-the-book, conservative bookkeeper who likes to keep her nose clean.  The cleaner the better, which also leads to another jell-o issue that isn't easily worked into everyday conversation.  I was raised to play fair.  I have not been dealt a fair hand.  I don't think many people have.  I was raised to be compassionate, self-aware to the point of brutal self-honesty, and to see things from other people's perspectives.  I am stuck between my ideals and my reality.  Which brings me to my point.

I have worked for two different men now that are both "salesmen."  They hustle.  They squeeze every penny they can into their own pockets.  Personally, I think that denying fair treatment to others for personal gain is disgusting.  But these men do not have the money problems I do.  Their families are successful.  In many senses of that word.  They do not get bogged down in crap like I do.  They are good at denying other people.  And good at not accepting other people's bs.  Their denial often offends my sense of fairness and balance.

I think of these people as "sharks" in my mind.  Soulless predators.  And yet... we need predators.  I look to nature and I see raptors that kill mercilessly, and at the same time, still take care of their family units.  I see species that have little motherly instinct, such as bettas and allegators, survive and thrive.  Our cats are definitely predators, but they are our willing children and affectionate beyond belief.

How much should I let my idealism get in the way of dealing with reality?  That is more blunt and brutal a question than I mean it to be, but it is the best description I have at the moment.  There must be a way to blend the two without letting either break me into little pieces again.

Any thoughts?

And, before anyone asks- the other jell-o comment I said to frogprince the other night.  "Please pass me a tissue.  I need to clean off my nose, because it just got hit with an avalache of jell-o."
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 12, 2012, 09:36:09 PM
Are you saying that you don't like helping people who are dishonest? If you are, I can't say that I blame you for feeling that way.

That being said, that's probably just some form of pride standing in the way of what might be the financial gains that your family needs to survive. If you need their business to keep food on the table, then keep doing it (maybe charge them more to make fair work and a point if you can get away with it). If you can afford to live without their business, THEN DROP THEM!

It all comes down to doing what you have to to make ends meet, and if that means that you have to deal with scum (or clean scum out of a pond for that matter) then do it!

That's just my thoughts, but I really agree with the feeling that dishonest people (``hustlers'') don't deserve anything but the bad karma which they've accrued

::double-edit::
If you don't like that others aren't playing fairly an option is always to learn to play by ``their rules''. This means that if someone is cheating you then it's fair for you to cheat them back (or at least try anyway)

::first edit::

and to the question of faith: I don't think that true faith can break. I think that if what you had before at some point broke, then what it was wasn't really faith. It might have been "confidence" which was challenged and went away? I don't know, I'm just making this up as I go along so someone please feel free to step in and correct this edit part :D
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: naturalpaganmomma on August 12, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
auntygreens, I can't say I am political, be it conservative or liberal. I use to be political, but I just couldn't stomach it anymore. I do like order, but I am possibly a little more flexible with chaos than you may be. I also can't proclaim to be a great mind of any sort. I can only be honest about how I perceive things, so here it goes.

As I do not know exactly what type of faith you are referring to, I will do the best I can to answer regarding faith in general.

When it comes to faith, I do not believe a broken faith is a real faith. Faith is specific and relative to the situation or topic. You can have faith in disappointment as it is there and you are feeling it, but can you have faith in what is disappointing you? I don't think so. If you're disappointed, it most likely means something is missing or off or in flat out conflict with you. In other words, you can have faith that something is a lie, but can you have faith that that lie is the truth? Nah ah. Nope. Doesn't work that way. But as I said, faith is also relative to the particular topic or situation.

For example, do I have faith in the human race as a whole? Hell no! To me the human race as a whole is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine and about as reliable as a melted jelly bean on hot pavement and less intelligent by far. (Now mind you, I say this even though I am trying to be a more positive person. It just goes to show I am far from perfect and will most likely always have a little bit of the jaded within me.)  :-p Despite my feelings on the human race as a whole, if I were asked, do I have faith in certain members of the human race? Hell yes! I have met people in my life that were and are phenomenal individuals. They carry themselves with dignity, integrity, honesty, and intelligence, and their mere existence is too far and few between for my taste. They are the type of people I aspire to be like, but know I have a long way to go if I ever get there.

You see? Faith is absolute, but it is also relative. So you have to ask yourself, what do you really have faith in? Once you figure that out, things will seem a little more clear. You may not have faith in something as a whole, but their may be parts of that whole you do have faith in. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean your faith is broken, it just means it's very specific--like mine; like many.

As for the frothy jello, does it matter what you call it? If you like it, and it still tastes sweet, does its name matter? Does it truly need to be defined, or is it better to just enjoy it? For me, I couldn't care less what it was called, I would concentrate more on enjoying it.

Now, for the sharky-business-jacklags you are referring too, I don't like people like that either. The problem is? They exist and they always will. There will always be some jerk or jerkette who profits from someone else's misery or swindling them out of their hard earned money. I believe such moral, if not legal, criminals are necessary, even if I do not like it, but that's because I believe in balance.

I believe everything sits upon a circle, so everything has it's opposite. And even though there are gray areas between the opposites, the opposites upon the circle create balance. The gray areas in between is where we usually get hung up and that's when we have trouble seeing balance. We begin to question where we are suppose to be, which leads to the answer...

I always say, you can not control others or situations that may arise. You can only control how you react to them.

They don't care. You do. You can not control what they do on the job, but you can control what you do in your own free time. If they do not care to make a difference, than help maintain the balance by doing something good for your fellow man in your own personal life. That's what I do. I can't save the world. I can't make other people care, but I can do what I can for others.

I may not have faith in the human race as a whole, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to help it or not care about it. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't hold out hope for it. I can only be me, and do what I can when I can. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope this helps. Sometimes what seems clear to me, confuses everyone else.  ;D
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 13, 2012, 01:15:22 AM
I'd find it very difficult to reconcile helping anyone who was ripping off an ordinary punters,. Are they shaving excess commissions from working couple for aluminium siding? Selling them cheap after market car parts as factory produced quality ones? Then no deal - there are other ways to make a living than stealing from people trying to make an honest one.

If on the other hand they're ripping off larger entities - corporates, banks, the tax man - well that's a different option. They're fair game. They steal and cheat and finagled their way to wealth - a taste of their own medicine is well called for.

As for the faith thing. There's nothing worth believing in that doesn't raise doubts and questions constantly. If you believe blindly and with no break at all, you're a zealot and may as well toddle off to a Pentecostal prayer house to be told what to think and feel and do at every turn.

The Jello I'd call jemousse.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Firesong on August 13, 2012, 01:01:10 PM
Auntigreens,

Ethics are such a personal issue.  My only advice?

To quote Polonius:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: marisol on August 13, 2012, 03:19:17 PM
auntygreens Firesong kinda beat me to it.  I agree with him wholeheartedly. What you allow
into your life is up to you. I personally believe we can have a break in our faith. Because I have had one, long ago. It took me some time to find myself again and to find a new faith which is much more fulfilling than the first. Our lives are what we make of them and how we value what
we have.
I have a lot of faith in humankind. I think we have much potential to be more than we are. But
we must always keep that formost in our minds. To strive always forward, never back.

There will always be those guilty of being less, they deserve  no place in our lives. I will not except them in mine, but you must follow your own conscious. Goddess Bless.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 13, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
Thank you.  I will think on everything that has been said.  And... if no one minds, continue the conversation.

My faith.  Hmm.  This is something I knew well, even if i couldn't fully define it in words to another person.  a simple set of feelings that had very complex reactions in the remainder of my existence.  as, i think, it should be.  right now, the fundamentals are the same.  but the manifestations are more what i question.

i used to believe that when someone was suffering, you help them.  but now i wonder.  perhaps they are suffering and struggling simply because they need to, in order to advance in themselves.  and, i don't mean ignore those who are helpless.  that is, in my mind, still without question.

but something i have noticed in both of the men i am referring to.  they struggle with the day to day.  they both have handicaps that tug at my compassion.  And yet, they both cook the books as much as possible, to get away with what they can.  i feel used.  THEY have no compunction about it.  and yes, while a bank definitely makes money off of people, i still believe in fair deals.  if a person makes an ACH transfer error, then, well, they should pay the fines associated with that error, no matter what the circumstances are with their bank.  throwing their weight around to get out of paying the fines that are a result of the person's error, not the bank's error, i have a problem with. 

i interviewed with a man the other day that has been audited by the IRS twice.  and he still believes that he can do whatever the heck he wants without being fined or shut down for it.  that there are no legal ramifications to his bookkeeper for the choices he makes and tells the bookkeeper to do.

Do i think that banks and the irs play dirty pool? yes.  but i also feel that if you don't cook it, play fair with the local branch manager, and take every legal and legally clean deduction you can, you would come out better in the end.  you have integrity as well as a tight bottom line.

i am asked so frequently how creative i am.  meaning, how creative can i get with bookwork.  i hate it.  i think that if you make an agreement with someone, you stick to it, instead of constantly finding a way to maneuver around it.  these men don't.  they look for every edge they can.  and having a simple conversation with them can lead to them having you under their thumb in an instant, if you admit to something that is a grey area.  such as having a pet you are not supposed to.  they can and will threaten your personal life to get you to do what they want.

i also used to believe that i balanced out these people.  that i should be balancing out these people.  now...  now i am not so sure.  lets call boss 1, "j" and boss 2 "b".  when i worked for j, i took his company and turned it around.  from breaking damn near every law you could think of, to a tightly run, clean business.  the expenses went up.  but his wife was relieved because she was no longer looking over her shoulder.  i spent time getting back insurance audit money in excess of $85K and $55K two years respectively, simply because i didn't cook the books the way j had.  i cut the office expenditures in half.  i got creative in cutting expenses.  not in reporting those expenses.  i was repaid by having the raise that i agreed to not take for 2 years in a row given to someone else. 

the chickens have come home to roost.  j's company is folding simply because there is no one there to fight with him to keep it running smoothly.  but i also feel bad because nearly 15 people are also out of work, with a handful on the way.  my faith previously called?  not sure how to put it.  not that i was necessarily responsible for those people, because in ways i was.  but because i fought with j, there was some prosperity for those people.  i am gone, they are out of work.  those that i have reconnected with after their lay-offs and have found other work state that they are happier with the new positions they have found.  but there aren't that many who have found work.  and again, i am not responsible for whether or not they do.  i know this.

i wonder if i had let j get caught with what he was doing would have made a difference sooner for those people.  i can't change the past.  but i can change those same choices i am faced with now with "b."  because b is now playing fast and loose with his contract terms and wanting me to change the software to write checks other than "as is."  he is in lawsuits with his partners and using my skills and knowledge to find an edge over those people, without me really knowing why he is asking the questions.  he bumbles and fumbles the questions so much i do not know if he is pulling a "matlock" or is really having difficulty in understanding.  and then, all of a sudden, i find out after the fact.  he asks questions in such a way as to get only the answer he wants.

i am getting paranoid in working in this place.  so... do i hold to my ideals or do i turn into a shark?  this is why i am looking for a middle ground.

i have already decided to leave where i am.  it is unhealthy there.  for me.  and, for once, i do not feel obligated by other people's needs to be saved to stay.

i just want to learn to stay out of the middle, in the future.  not to duck things that i am really responsible for- you know the saying- all it takes for "evil" to win is for good men to do nothing.  i don't want to do nothing.  but i think, in a lot of ways, i am making my life harder than it needs to be, somehow.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 13, 2012, 05:44:41 PM
::edit::
the original content of this post has been removed for potential legal issues
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Draconis Rex on August 13, 2012, 06:20:03 PM
This is indeed quite the quandry. From my own standpoint, I would suggest that you put your foot down and let ALL concerned know from the outset, You have principles and you have your own ethics and under no circumstances is anyone going to compromise these. If they want to be devious or underhanded then so be it, but they must do it without your help.

Now comes the interesting part; In order to protect yourself, you must be a little devious yourself. You keep copies of these dubious transactions in a completely seperate file that ONLY you know about. Hopefully these will remain unmolested because you have already made your position clear, but should the need arise these files are where you can get at them.

I know how this all sounds, and really I don't know anything about you but this would be my way to roll. Firesong quoted Polonius in an earlier post and I would be inclined to go with that. "To thine own self be true". I would feel I was betraying myself and my principles otherwise. I would hope never to be put into the position you seem to be finding yourself in... Really sux!

I wish you well in whatever it is you decide to do.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 14, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
I think this has helped me quite a lot.  Thank you for all of your observations.

I don't have an answer.  Not yet.  But I feel more solid in some of my decisions.   A lot more solid.  And, it helped me directly today.  I do not care for affusive?  effusive? flattery.  "b" seems to think i will stay simply because he has a need, he is overly suave, and is willing to throw money at me.  i was able to tell him, without compunction or guilt, that this was not my fight.  if he and his partners can not get along, then there is no compromise to be had and any advice i give him is useless, no matter who is right or wrong.  b refuses to see his part in things.  so.  not my fight.  not my struggle.  i put the responsibility squarely back on his shoulders where it belongs.  i was straight with him in that i do not like being there.

he is trying to make the emotional connection that he and i are in this boat together.  i saw through that today.  and remembered to keep my mouth shut, other than to re-state that this is not my fight and he will continue to bleed staff until he gets the anger and game playing down to a tolerable level.

the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 14, 2012, 09:57:16 PM
the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.
My opinion on this one is to apply for a job within the IRS (you're a citizen of the US, right?). Then you can make a lifetime out of finding dishonest scum like these gentlemen and fining them/jailing them for their criminal behaviors.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Firesong on August 15, 2012, 03:04:07 PM
Thank you.  I will think on everything that has been said.  And... if no one minds, continue the conversation.

My faith.  Hmm.  This is something I knew well, even if i couldn't fully define it in words to another person.  a simple set of feelings that had very complex reactions in the remainder of my existence.  as, i think, it should be.  right now, the fundamentals are the same.  but the manifestations are more what i question.

i used to believe that when someone was suffering, you help them.  but now i wonder.  perhaps they are suffering and struggling simply because they need to, in order to advance in themselves.  and, i don't mean ignore those who are helpless.  that is, in my mind, still without question.

but something i have noticed in both of the men i am referring to.  they struggle with the day to day.  they both have handicaps that tug at my compassion.  And yet, they both cook the books as much as possible, to get away with what they can.  i feel used.  THEY have no compunction about it.  and yes, while a bank definitely makes money off of people, i still believe in fair deals.  if a person makes an ACH transfer error, then, well, they should pay the fines associated with that error, no matter what the circumstances are with their bank.  throwing their weight around to get out of paying the fines that are a result of the person's error, not the bank's error, i have a problem with. 

i interviewed with a man the other day that has been audited by the IRS twice.  and he still believes that he can do whatever the heck he wants without being fined or shut down for it.  that there are no legal ramifications to his bookkeeper for the choices he makes and tells the bookkeeper to do.

Do i think that banks and the irs play dirty pool? yes.  but i also feel that if you don't cook it, play fair with the local branch manager, and take every legal and legally clean deduction you can, you would come out better in the end.  you have integrity as well as a tight bottom line.

i am asked so frequently how creative i am.  meaning, how creative can i get with bookwork.  i hate it.  i think that if you make an agreement with someone, you stick to it, instead of constantly finding a way to maneuver around it.  these men don't.  they look for every edge they can.  and having a simple conversation with them can lead to them having you under their thumb in an instant, if you admit to something that is a grey area.  such as having a pet you are not supposed to.  they can and will threaten your personal life to get you to do what they want.

i also used to believe that i balanced out these people.  that i should be balancing out these people.  now...  now i am not so sure.  lets call boss 1, "j" and boss 2 "b".  when i worked for j, i took his company and turned it around.  from breaking damn near every law you could think of, to a tightly run, clean business.  the expenses went up.  but his wife was relieved because she was no longer looking over her shoulder.  i spent time getting back insurance audit money in excess of $85K and $55K two years respectively, simply because i didn't cook the books the way j had.  i cut the office expenditures in half.  i got creative in cutting expenses.  not in reporting those expenses.  i was repaid by having the raise that i agreed to not take for 2 years in a row given to someone else. 

the chickens have come home to roost.  j's company is folding simply because there is no one there to fight with him to keep it running smoothly.  but i also feel bad because nearly 15 people are also out of work, with a handful on the way.  my faith previously called?  not sure how to put it.  not that i was necessarily responsible for those people, because in ways i was.  but because i fought with j, there was some prosperity for those people.  i am gone, they are out of work.  those that i have reconnected with after their lay-offs and have found other work state that they are happier with the new positions they have found.  but there aren't that many who have found work.  and again, i am not responsible for whether or not they do.  i know this.

i wonder if i had let j get caught with what he was doing would have made a difference sooner for those people.  i can't change the past.  but i can change those same choices i am faced with now with "b."  because b is now playing fast and loose with his contract terms and wanting me to change the software to write checks other than "as is."  he is in lawsuits with his partners and using my skills and knowledge to find an edge over those people, without me really knowing why he is asking the questions.  he bumbles and fumbles the questions so much i do not know if he is pulling a "matlock" or is really having difficulty in understanding.  and then, all of a sudden, i find out after the fact.  he asks questions in such a way as to get only the answer he wants.

i am getting paranoid in working in this place.  so... do i hold to my ideals or do i turn into a shark?  this is why i am looking for a middle ground.

i have already decided to leave where i am.  it is unhealthy there.  for me.  and, for once, i do not feel obligated by other people's needs to be saved to stay.

i just want to learn to stay out of the middle, in the future.  not to duck things that i am really responsible for- you know the saying- all it takes for "evil" to win is for good men to do nothing.  i don't want to do nothing.  but i think, in a lot of ways, i am making my life harder than it needs to be, somehow.

Those men are the reason the Gods gave us the ability to hex...
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 15, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
I am an accountant and i know what you mean about those salesmen.  Necessary evil of the business world.  You don't have to like them to do your job to the best of your abilities.  You can also find a different job if possible.  Non profits can be good jobs for ethical people.  I work in AR and deal with millions of dollars.  In my mind there is no difference in me stealing a dime or a million dollars from the company I work for.  I work with and for good people.  I do have to deal with some very rich folks from time to time and if i had to be like some of them act,  I would rather be poor.  I can look myself in the mirror and am proud of what I see.

We work in a service industry.  A lot of people don't like accounting types because our main job is to protect a companies assets so some people can take offense at our inquisitive nature.  I can honestly say the only person I really couldn't stand that I worked with was a salesperson.  They have a totally different mindset than us.  Acceptance is a big key to a happy life, imo.  Nothing you say or do will change their outlook on life or how they treat people.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 16, 2012, 09:29:42 PM
the rest, for future decisions.  i will let it stew in my mind for a bit.  maybe i am in the wrong profession. or the wrong hmm... field? concentration? in the right profession.  i have been thinking of taking classes in medical billing.
My opinion on this one is to apply for a job within the IRS (you're a citizen of the US, right?). Then you can make a lifetime out of finding dishonest scum like these gentlemen and fining them/jailing them for their criminal behaviors.

The only problem with that is that the only friends you will have(irl) will work for the IRS too.  I was told that by a district director of the IRS in our area, that.  People who you thought were your friends, will abandon you.  You work for the IRS now, those thieving bastards.  :-p  Ain't too many people who pay taxes, really care for the IRS all that much.

Eta:  I met that guy while studying for the CPA exam.  He was one of the instructors.  I actually considered going to work for the IRS until I found that out.  Normal/regular folk avoid IRS agents like the plague. ;)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 16, 2012, 09:42:37 PM
*touches earthbound spirit gently in gratitude*

thank you.  thank you so very much.  to all of you, really.  i have been wracking my brain so hard these past three months.  wondering if there is something wrong with my thinking.  there is.  but not in the way i thought there was.  i have been back and forth so many, many times.

my sister tells me all the time- you don't have to play fair in your head.  as long as you act honorably, you don't have to be fair on the inside.  you can curse and scream and be as childish as you want.  because giving yourself room, inside, to react and to stomp your feet at something that hurts you, is healthy.  i keep forgetting that.

i need to learn to refocus.  focus on what is going on at home.  and not injest the bs.  focus on my sister, my pets, frogprince.  focus on the love and acceptance in my life.  not the people who get away with "murder" because there will always BE those people.  all i do is give them more power when i focus my attention on them.  that is how i turn hard and inflexible.

i have an interview on saturday with a couple who are trying to restructure their business.  and a placement firm is really, really interested in me, even tho i didn't accept the position with the irs-audited man.  they are very supportive and confident that they will be able to find me a better position than i have right now.

i am not who i used to be.  and i know that doesn't make sense to any of you.  i don't think writing the book of who i used to be would matter or be condusive to any one else's understanding.  i feel as though i am in the third incarnation of my life (in this life time, i mean, for those who believe in reincarnation).  just beginning again. i let go of the anarchy and went straight as an arrow in my early twenties.  now, i am letting go of the straight edges and evolving into something new.  so, maybe it wasn't that my faith broke.  not the way i viewed it four years ago or even six months ago.  i got rocked.  right down to my core/bedrock, and all of my own inner bs and demons needed to come out and dance for a while.  and maybe the point is to balance out myself, in the history and future of my self, and not the people who will use and break others for their own whims.  that is someone else's job for a while.  time to focus on healing my damage and the damage i have done.  not to relive it over and over.  but to really, finally heal it.

non-profits?  something to really think about.  thanks for the suggestion.  i have had a dream lately to start a casino/bingo hall, with the focus on donating a chunk of the profits to the ASPCA and other animal rights groups.  to take someone's addiction and turn it into something for the betterment of all, without judging the person with the addiction.  jst a thought, because the chance of it happening is very slim.  but i like the idea of it more and more.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 16, 2012, 09:50:49 PM
"Normal/regular folk avoid IRS agents like the plague"

who said i was normal in the first place?  i am in the accounting field, afterall.  *winks, while brushinf dust off her nose*

i don't think the irs or the fbi would necessarily approve of the impish side of my nature.  *sorry, lucifer*  every once in a while my edit button breaks and there is usually some commotion with guacamole or a jar of vaseline and yodeling that just breaks out. 

*and get your sick minds out of the gutter on that last one.  it was a practical joke i played on "j" when my boss informed me that his hemorrhoids gave him a little thrill.  there are just somethings you don't need to know about your boss and this was my way of making sure he didn't share any more details of his life like that again.*

my problems aren't always with jell-o.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Serpentium on August 17, 2012, 02:00:40 AM
Presumably these sharks are paying you, to keep their books, yes? So just keep their books, and leave their morality, or lack of it, for them to deal with. It's not your responsibility. They aren't paying you to make ethical calls, or to judge their working practices, just to enable them to pay the minimum tax you can legally arrange. If your hands feel a bit mucky at the end of a working day, then adjust your price accordingly. If it still wont sit square with you, then drop them. But best just to do the job you're paid for.

Also, there's no harm in filing certain facts away, for a rainy day either, not specifically for blackmail, but just to protect your own back. If they are morally bankrupt in their dealings with everyone else, there's no reason for you to think they're going to treat you any differently, should it become expedient. Leverage isn't Blackmail, until / unless they cross that certain line, and you decide to cash in your 'pension' and leave. No point leaving all the power in a working relationship, with someone you don't trust, is there? Self preservation. Make sure you have papers on him if you don't trust him.


Or depending on your own moral compass, remember you're in a position to totally rinse all his Bank accounts, put the money in an offshore account, in a name you can remember, and disappear with all his ill gotten assets. That might make him think about being a better person. Or it might not. Either way, it's still not your concern.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 17, 2012, 07:16:51 AM
Or depending on your own moral compass, remember you're in a position to totally rinse all his Bank accounts, put the money in an offshore account, in a name you can remember, and disappear with all his ill gotten assets. That might make him think about being a better person. Or it might not. Either way, it's still not your concern.
It would seem to me that the bottom-feeders that she's described in this wouldn't have enough $$ in a bank account to live comfortably for 10 years (spend too much $$, selfish & stupid non-realization that they won't be making it forever), and if you're going to be committing felonious embezzelment you'd want to be pretty sure that you could live comfortably for the rest of your life on the loot...
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 17, 2012, 08:46:47 AM
As I recall ag said that they were successful.  If you really want to get em,  turn em in to the IRS for cheating on their taxes.  Chances are that they do.  Not only would she get the satisfaction for revenge, if she is seeking that, she will recieve 10% of any monies the IRS collects from them.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Serpentium on August 17, 2012, 11:14:31 AM
As I recall ag said that they were successful.  If you really want to get em,  turn em in to the IRS for cheating on their taxes.  Chances are that they do.  Not only would she get the satisfaction for revenge, if she is seeking that, she will recieve 10% of any monies the IRS collects from them.
Surely they could just blame any financial irregularities on their dodgy accountant. I certainly would. If I was a "Slippery Jim" Tax evading  type of operator. In fact, I'd make bloody sure that there was incriminating evidence implicating my accountant for the Revenue to stumble across, as a safeguard against the very kind of shenanigins you're suggesting EBS. To play dirty, I'd make sure my hands were cleaner than theirs.




eta; Is this thread getting anywhere close to "Conspiracy to commit financial fraud" yet?  :o
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 17, 2012, 11:35:15 AM
While that could be the excuse that they use, they still have to pay any taxes owed plus penalty and interest on it.  ag will be in the clear unless she does their taxes which I am guessing she doesn't. 
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 17, 2012, 08:29:12 PM
eta; Is this thread getting anywhere close to "Conspiracy to commit financial fraud" yet?  :o
Yeah... quite a bit, right? Maybe it should be locked and deleted
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 17, 2012, 09:25:49 PM
oh, dear.  i certainly didn't mean this for... well... i just wanted some help.  not cause an argument or encourage fraud in any way.

it isn't that i seek revenge.  or punishment.  lucifer and i discussed that i had considered doing forensic accounting at one point, perhaps with the fbi.

the morality issue comes from being consistently asked to "bend" the rules to get the better bottom line.  bend em so hard they break.  some people feel that if you are being paid to do a job, do the job and don't question it.  i can't- not from what my gut tells me.  i have spoken with a lawyer and received legal council, after i left boss #1's place.  and yes, a bookkeeper can do time for just doing what they are told.

i don't do taxes.  payroll tax, sales tax, yes.  but not if the pool is dirty and i definitely don't do year end taxes.  for more than one reason.  but mostly because i LIKE being a bookkeeper.  just as much as being an office manager.  i like the logistics.  and the patterns that the values make when entered in over a course of time.  i like the challenge of a variety of tasks to do and complete.  i like changing hats during the day, and bopping between payroll, ap, ar, and all the other ins and outs of the small office.  i loved being in a construction office.  there was always something new going on.  always something new to learn.  i learned to draw blue prints well enough to be turned in to an engineering office and town boards for approval.  i learned so much about green technology.  each project brought on a new bookkeeping challenge.  i like finding the creative solutions for easy information retrieval and choosing activities that have multiple positive effects.  such as metal recycling that helps pay for a job site.  or storing month end information in 13 jackets a year instead of multiple binders and folders.  using shredded sensitive material for packing (once its been mixed up enough) and then donating the rest to the local pet store or spca for litter.  each of those things can be used to eliminate cost, recycle, reduce waste, and still get the job done effectively.

i am leaving the position anyway.  before it becomes a problem (like year end).  and i didn't accept the position with the twice-audited guy.  the temp company i went through for that interview is impressed with my skills and is keeping an eye out for me. 

the heartache, i guess i want to call it that, comes from knowing that what is being asked of me is not kosher and how I should deal with it.  not how i should punish those who do it in the first place, because i can't control them.  i can only control myself and my actions.  i don't think i really want to go back to living that much chaos and be that combative anymore.  and that is the answer i think i have been looking for, to give myself guidance in the next few weeks while i mull over this part of myself.  i don't want to paint myself into a corner with my straight edgy ethics, but i don't want to turn into that which disgusts me either.  i know how to cya, in case of a problem.  and how to do that legally, thanks to the other advice i have received. 

i have taken out a GL policy on myself as a dba.  so, i have an extra layer of coverage.  it isn't malpractice.  but it is an extra something in case of a major problem.  i have an accountant staff and a lawyer that know me well, as well as references from an insurance agent and a bank that will all swear to my code of conduct.  i started this years ago.  those references are gold to me and i treat those people with the respect and courtesy that they deserve.  these are also good habits to have, whether or not there is a legal issue.

the rest comes down to how much in the grey i want to live.  and how to deal with those people who want to push me past that level.  how to negotiate those cow pies without setting myself up for an even worse situation.  and if i am the one that needs to change, in order to achieve that, then that is what i must do.  i want to come home at the end of the day and know i did my best and have enough energy to enjoy my personal life.  i want to stop feeling used and mistreated by these people.  and if i am the one that is causing it by being too hard, then i need to soften.  or change where i am looking for employment.

this is why i turned to you.  because you, on this board, don't sugar coat.  even in compassion.  each of you have given me insight.  to myself.  to my issues, even if i haven't fully laid them out.  i wish to be my own change.  without focusing so hard on the unhealthy negatives i am trying to get away from.  so, i am sorry for the turn this has taken.  wasn't my intention at all.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 17, 2012, 11:09:29 PM
Quite frankly they don't do enough for people with tax dollars for me to be worried about who's skimming what. But for your own protection and security you need to make sure that they are not making a profit from risks being taken in your name. If you're the company accountant and the shit hits the fan, will you be legally liable for any transgressions? How many times have you seen owners and directors walk away free and clear while the lawyer and accountant do Federal time?

Over half of all the taxes collected in the US go straight to the military, so by fudging tax all you're really doing is buying one less bullet for a kid in Afghanistan to get hit by. But if your own freedom and good name are at risk, then it's way too much of a chance to take and you need to leave.

The IRS, like the tax organ of any country has no interest in pursuing the real tax cheats. The billion dollar a year cartels and monopolies, off shoring and downsizing the way to record unemployment levels. They persecute the little people. They torment some poor bloody tradesman who made an honest mistake and waitresses who forget to count every tip they received...not Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg with multi million dollar write offs for Lear Jets they swan about the globe stealing from people in.

And Lucifer of you're looking for a career why not become a copper? You seem to have the right mindset for it.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 18, 2012, 07:56:52 AM
And Lucifer of you're looking for a career why not become a copper? You seem to have the right mindset for it.
You obviously know very little about me, then.

I don't need to be corrupt and bloodthirsty. I have no desire to bully people. I despise the system as it currently is and would not want to be any part of it. Cops aren't allowed the ability to think - they are simply told the laws and told to enforce them. I would break any law which I deemed to be unjust (i.e. can't smoke pot but can drink alcohol [and for the record, I don't do either anymore]). I am an anti-authoritarian, seeing as any form of authority has had to play the games of the system so long that they've forgotten the difference between RIGHT and WRONG.

So, yeah... no. Give me a job counseling broken families any day over a job where I have to break families apart.

::edit::
Just because I know how to play the game doesn't mean that I have any desire to do it, but if my job took me where auntygreens has taken her... I would very likely find a way to reflect all the bad from the vultures that she's been working with right back at them.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on August 18, 2012, 12:12:42 PM
eta; Is this thread getting anywhere close to "Conspiracy to commit financial fraud" yet?  :o
Yeah... quite a bit, right? Maybe it should be locked and deleted

No chance at the moment.....
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Serpentium on August 18, 2012, 12:14:33 PM
Quote
Before you set out to destroy "the System", however, first remember that we made it and in our own interests.  We sustain it constantly, either in agreement, with our support, or in opposition with our dissent.  The opponents of the System are as much a function of the System as its defenders.  The System is a ghost, assembled in the minds of human beings operating within "the System."  It is a virtual parent we made to look after us.  We made it very big and difficult to see in its entirety and we serve it and nourish it every day. 
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Firesong on August 20, 2012, 11:22:48 AM
oh, dear.  i certainly didn't mean this for... well... i just wanted some help.  not cause an argument or encourage fraud in any way.

it isn't that i seek revenge.  or punishment.  lucifer and i discussed that i had considered doing forensic accounting at one point, perhaps with the fbi.

the morality issue comes from being consistently asked to "bend" the rules to get the better bottom line.  bend em so hard they break.  some people feel that if you are being paid to do a job, do the job and don't question it.  i can't- not from what my gut tells me.  i have spoken with a lawyer and received legal council, after i left boss #1's place.  and yes, a bookkeeper can do time for just doing what they are told.

i don't do taxes.  payroll tax, sales tax, yes.  but not if the pool is dirty and i definitely don't do year end taxes.  for more than one reason.  but mostly because i LIKE being a bookkeeper.  just as much as being an office manager.  i like the logistics.  and the patterns that the values make when entered in over a course of time.  i like the challenge of a variety of tasks to do and complete.  i like changing hats during the day, and bopping between payroll, ap, ar, and all the other ins and outs of the small office.  i loved being in a construction office.  there was always something new going on.  always something new to learn.  i learned to draw blue prints well enough to be turned in to an engineering office and town boards for approval.  i learned so much about green technology.  each project brought on a new bookkeeping challenge.  i like finding the creative solutions for easy information retrieval and choosing activities that have multiple positive effects.  such as metal recycling that helps pay for a job site.  or storing month end information in 13 jackets a year instead of multiple binders and folders.  using shredded sensitive material for packing (once its been mixed up enough) and then donating the rest to the local pet store or spca for litter.  each of those things can be used to eliminate cost, recycle, reduce waste, and still get the job done effectively.

i am leaving the position anyway.  before it becomes a problem (like year end).  and i didn't accept the position with the twice-audited guy.  the temp company i went through for that interview is impressed with my skills and is keeping an eye out for me. 

the heartache, i guess i want to call it that, comes from knowing that what is being asked of me is not kosher and how I should deal with it.  not how i should punish those who do it in the first place, because i can't control them.  i can only control myself and my actions.  i don't think i really want to go back to living that much chaos and be that combative anymore.  and that is the answer i think i have been looking for, to give myself guidance in the next few weeks while i mull over this part of myself.  i don't want to paint myself into a corner with my straight edgy ethics, but i don't want to turn into that which disgusts me either.  i know how to cya, in case of a problem.  and how to do that legally, thanks to the other advice i have received. 

i have taken out a GL policy on myself as a dba.  so, i have an extra layer of coverage.  it isn't malpractice.  but it is an extra something in case of a major problem.  i have an accountant staff and a lawyer that know me well, as well as references from an insurance agent and a bank that will all swear to my code of conduct.  i started this years ago.  those references are gold to me and i treat those people with the respect and courtesy that they deserve.  these are also good habits to have, whether or not there is a legal issue.

the rest comes down to how much in the grey i want to live.  and how to deal with those people who want to push me past that level.  how to negotiate those cow pies without setting myself up for an even worse situation.  and if i am the one that needs to change, in order to achieve that, then that is what i must do.  i want to come home at the end of the day and know i did my best and have enough energy to enjoy my personal life.  i want to stop feeling used and mistreated by these people.  and if i am the one that is causing it by being too hard, then i need to soften.  or change where i am looking for employment.

this is why i turned to you.  because you, on this board, don't sugar coat.  even in compassion.  each of you have given me insight.  to myself.  to my issues, even if i haven't fully laid them out.  i wish to be my own change.  without focusing so hard on the unhealthy negatives i am trying to get away from.  so, i am sorry for the turn this has taken.  wasn't my intention at all.

You didn't cause any problems AG... I think many people just don't realize that when you deal with finances, it's not only important to avoid impropriety, but also the appearance of impropriety...
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: blue on August 21, 2012, 06:49:13 PM

 This seems simple to me. Life is a series of tradeoffs. In order to aquire the wealth something else has to be traded off for the gain. If you look closely at the life of " The Sharks " it's easy to see the price that they're paying. If you're a straight shooter then you're paying another kind of price but you may posess a peace of mind and love that the rich man will never know.

 It's all in knowing your true self and making the choices that are consistent with who you truly are as a person.

 There's no sense in getting tangled up in other people's messes or doling out retribution. That which goes around comes around. Go to punish somebody for their actions and you punish yourself.

 That's kinda stupid .... besides .... nobody escapes the consequense of their choices and actions. You pay right now in this lifetime, and possibly in the hereafter.

 It's really not a matter of faith but an observation of how certain principles hold consistently true.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: marisol on August 27, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
AG you have caused no problems that I can see. Please don't leave after this one topic, but stay
and help us, may of us need help. I'm enjoying you being back.

Goddess bless
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 27, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
Like Marisol said you must stay remember this old saying " you can make crazy people mad their already nuts"  JRFN 8/27/12 at 02:10 pm . So stay that's and order and the drinks are on Marisol .
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Serpentium on August 27, 2012, 03:29:23 PM
Crazy today, might mean something completely different in 2 or 3 decades time.

For instance, In '69, people were saying Charlie Manson was totally crazy, and just look at him now!
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/Ups%20and%20Downs%201/Charlie.gif)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 27, 2012, 04:07:17 PM
Looks and act like one of my neighbors.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 27, 2012, 08:51:33 PM
i am not going anywhere.  i just moved topics.  i am back to looking for work.  and having some trouble getting out from my past.  i am completely stressed out from the situation from  both j and b.  and keep shooting myself in the foot.  if i break out in hives one more time, i am not sure i will have any skin left.

i am just tired of feeling drained from the toxic experience at work.  it takes hours at the end of the day to begin feeling... normal again.  even with candle rits and cleansing rits.  i feel like weeping all the time or like i am completely numb.

but at the same time, i am allowing myself to change.  each day brings a new dynamic or subtle shift. 

i am always here for you.  i just don't debate.  i am not knocking anyone else.  i just believe in quoting life, not a book.  i have been reading a lot of posts and sharing marshmellows and cocoa when i can.  i am not as... aggressive or forthright as some of you.  but, if i can help, i will.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Scorched Eartha on August 27, 2012, 08:57:59 PM
Just change jobs. It's obvious this one's not good for you.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 27, 2012, 09:08:11 PM
Aggressive forthright , oh not us were timid and shy . We love everyone except those we don't like then all bets are off psycho time.
 
Just made some brownies want several and a night warm glass of Brandy.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 27, 2012, 09:47:50 PM
Part of my problem is that i miss my old job.  not my boss, but my job.  i need to change.  i miss being in construction, even tho there is a lot of dark grey bookkeeping.  and the job i am in now, i am past my end date.  i have agreed to stay for many reasons.  and i am getting out.  but there aren't a lot of jobs right now.  i am not good at selling myself or promoting my side-business.  so i tend to blow interviews.  i don't know.  there is so much up in the air and it seems like all i attract for employment are these scummy businessmen.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 27, 2012, 10:24:09 PM
Do you or can you move out of state if there was work that you wanted ?. When you say construction do you mean the physical work or management .
 
All you have to do when you go to and interview is believe in yourself  , I know you can do it , so sending you energy for mass confidences .
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 06:18:04 AM
Do you or can you move out of state if there was work that you wanted ?. When you say construction do you mean the physical work or management .
She had posted previously that she was doing bookkeeping for a construction/architecture firm (something about learning to draw blueprints)

Quote

All you have to do when you go to and interview is believe in yourself  , I know you can do it , so sending you energy for mass confidences .
no... when you go to an interview, you have to BS about yourself... draw yourself up to be the best, know the best, can make all the other workers/employees look like crap. It's not about believing in yourself - it's about believing that YOU'RE THE BEST (some of us have an easy time doing that... others don't)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 28, 2012, 10:02:49 AM
One ) Lucy do not correct anyone you just make enemies that way.
 
Two ) We all know she does bookkeeping for a construction company , but she said she missed be in construction; apply that she did construction ( read more carefully , understand  ) .
 
Three ) never tell people to lie about themselves when in and interview  ( asd she stated so does not do good in interviews ) unless they have lied all their life most people can not do it with out being detected. Get caught in a lie and it gets around eg. forget getting a job , and by chance if you do get it the truth of your lie will surface real soon ; then no job and bad refs from then on
 
Four ) the best advice YOU can give someone is to say nothing at all, it's not your ass on the line. Malignant little troll .
 
 
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 12:58:57 PM
@ oldghost - learn to read and connect? If she says she misses being in construction and she also says that she LIKES being a bookkeeper/office manager, then it stands to reason that she means that she misses being in construction management (the bookkeeping aspect + management aspect?)
i don't do taxes.  payroll tax, sales tax, yes.  but not if the pool is dirty and i definitely don't do year end taxes.  for more than one reason.  but mostly because i LIKE being a bookkeeper.  just as much as being an office manager.  i like the logistics.  and the patterns that the values make when entered in over a course of time.  i like the challenge of a variety of tasks to do and complete.  i like changing hats during the day, and bopping between payroll, ap, ar, and all the other ins and outs of the small office.  i loved being in a construction office.
Also, most companies don't want fallible humans to work for them - they want perfect robots that can work long hours and never take breaks and never make mistakes... they don't want to hear in your interview anything but that you're fantastic and you're great and you are the best (the other employees here pale in comparison)... Who do you think most companies hire? A great worker who can't talk or a great talker who can't work? (and of course they'll fire you if they find out you were lying, so you have to do some interview prepwork; see next line block) ::edit:: I did a little consultation with a friend on this subject and he said that he thinks that if it sounds like you're being DISHONEST, a company probably won't hire you either... You've got to be as positive and honest-sounding as you can without revealing a lot of bad or negative things about yourself? ::/edit::

She's already said that she has issues with being dishonest (it's hard for her to feel right while being dishonest), which could easily make it hard to pass an interview (they ask you what your greatest character flaw is and you answer truthfully). When you're preparing for a job interview, your best bet is to go over potential questions with a friend who has experience with management hiring techniques so you can figure out what your responses should be IN ADVANCE. ::edit:: if you don't feel right about lying, find a (grey-area) way to tell the truth without making yourself look bad ::/edit::

And don't call me a troll...

::edit::
@ auntygreens: Do you know why you tend to blow interviews? What could we do to help you?

::edited::
added some words for clarity.
removed some words for accuracy of thought
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
to clarify and not to be egotistical: here is my resume, with some things removed.


Education
Business Major;
Phlebotomy Technician

Awards
Awarded seven separate incentive prizes in three years for going above & beyond job duties, assisting others, & writing programs specific to the maufacturer’s needs.

Work Experience
 current:
·   Consultation Services for small business
·   Bookkeeping Services
·   Small Business set up for new business owners
·   Insurance consultations
·   Workflow designs
·   Pricing and cost of goods analysis worksheets
·   Excel instruction and Access programming

5 years: Office/Project Manager
Job Duties:
·   Managing 3 companies
·   AP
·   AR
·   Bookkeeping
·   Reconciling multiple credit cards & bank statements
·   Debt collection
·   Payroll & Human Resources
·   Per-Diem applications
·   Orientation
·   Sexual harassment training
·   Safety meetings
·   Hire screening
·   Institute new policies
·   Vendor relations
·   Material ordering
·   Scheduling deliveries to multiple sites, including heavy equipment
·   Insurance- Worker’s Comp, GL, Auto, Client
·   Audits
·   Project Management
·   Contracts and proposals
·   LEED prep
·   New filing systems, including new forms
·   Maintain a schedule for employer
·   Hotel scheduling
·   Small & minor equipment repair
·   Information hub for 5 different departments
·   Software maintenance & program writing
·   Website design & maintenance
·   Specialty printing
·   Rendering schematics and floor plans
·   More

4 years Manufacturer Clerk
·   IPM Level 1, Level 2, & Level 3 Certified
·   Maintained & updated the incoming inventory Manual, C.O.A.’s, MSDS, & Spec Sheets to current standards on a weekly basis
·   Purchased ingredients for the plant, office supplies, & safety equipment for multiple departments, $5M per annum
·   Prepared documents & programming for presentations, audits, & certifications.
·   Acted as editor-in-chief, lay-out artist, & publisher for Quarterly Newsletter
·   Processed shipping documents & destination tickets for the docks, including balance orders for Production
·   Performed data entry, including taking orders, inventory tracking & bookwork
·   Acted as Office Liaison to the Training Team
·   Maintained & created workflows, forms, & the programs that support them
·   Handled Accounts Receivable, Accounts Payable, Payroll, & resulting applications

Computer Skills
·   Microsoft Office Products: Access, Excel, Publisher, Power Point, Outlook, Word
·   PeopleSoft, Quickbooks, Money, Yardi, Turning Point, Red Wing
·   Open Office Products
·   Experience with Word Perfect 3.1-6.2, & Wordstar 5.0
·   Experience with Lotus, dBase, AS400, Mainframes
·   Web-site management, message boards, online applications,
·   PC tuning, networking, and clean-up
·   more
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 04:26:36 PM
I can't move from the house.  I own it completely and it is paid off.  My sister lives on the other side of the duplex.  I can't sell it for another three years at least, unless I want to pay 51% in capital gains taxes, since my mother and i bought it together, at my mom's insistence, as a rental property.  the amount i pay in taxes on the property for the equivalent of a 6 bedroom house is the same as a 2 bedroom apartment a month. 

i blow interviews because i am always saying the exact wrong thing. 

* don't be negative.  but tell me why you left you last job. 

well, "cindy," i left my last job because i made peanuts, ran the office single handedly with an idiot for a part time clerk, my boss gave my raise to someone else, i worked 60 hours a week while taking care of my terminal mother, and got sick of having to run interference between my boss's hookers and his wife.

translated for interview speak: my mother was terminal and i needed to focus on her health.

* how much did you make for your last job?
13 an hour. 

and then, the light bulb goes off in their eyes- hey - she's willing to work for crap pay!  i'll offer her $13 an hour and expect her to drive 35 miles one way to get to work.  and i can't explain that i was supposed to be making $15, but negotiated for no raise in order to make payroll each month and keep my job longer, with the understanding that i expected my boss not to spend half the line of credit on his hookers and used bmw, but instead making it through some tough times and giving me back pay then.  but the alcoholic SOB would rather diddle in the back office and pretend he made no such deal.

nope- can't say that.

translation for interview: i negotiated a raise freeze in order to maintain my position.  i was a team player and wanted to make sure that my clerk could keep her position.

i don't know why that seems to rub people raw.

* what is this consulting business?

- it is a side job i did while taking care of my mother.  it is a side business that i run at night and on the weekends.

because, duh, you can't show that you are out of work for very long.  so it is assumed that i can do sales.  which i totally bomb at. 

*so, you ran this business out of your house?  what else have you been doing, since i see that it has been almost 2 years since your last permanent position?

well, lets see.  taking care of mom, taking care of 1 sister who is grieving and another sister who is dying.  trying to find a way to pay for everythign without depleting the savings we have that will pay for the house during this lovely recession.

translation for interview:  i have been working for temp agencies since my mother passed.  i wanted to make sure that i was ready to return to work.

*and are you ready?

well duh, why do you think i am here?

translation for interview:  yes.  i am eager to return to a position where my skills and strengths can be of benefit and use.

* very good.

this is what happens when i can actually GET someone to interview me.  i have sent out nearly a thousand resumes and have had maybe 20 responses. 

so, no, i don't know what i am doing wrong.

i try to practice, be engaging, be transparant without being bitter.  i just ALWAYS seem to say the exact wrong thing.

i can't even get a position at subway.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
i try to practice, be engaging, be transparant without being bitter.  i just ALWAYS seem to say the exact wrong thing.

i can't even get a position at subway.
Well... maybe you're just too nice? :-p

At least on paper, you seem to have everything down. Your resume looks impeccable!

Are you applying specifically for management positions? The reason I ask this is because people who hire managers are sometimes looking for the "smells blood in the water" type. Hire an ax-man so you don't have to do it yourself? (just a thought)

Why do you think that people aren't hiring you? Have you ever called a company after the fact and asked why they didn't hire you? (if you made a habit of doing this, it'd be a very bad thing, but to do it once or twice just to figure out what you did or didn't do might be useful)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 04:50:59 PM
not just management.  simple ap or clerk position, construction project manager, ar/collections, pr/hr positions.

and, really i don't have a clue.

and no, i am not a shark.  i don't like who i am when i get aggressive.

the three places i have called say that it is nothing personal.  i am over qualified.  not have the right skill set or that the position was removed during the interview process of the company.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 05:08:36 PM
the three places i have called say that it is nothing personal.  i am over qualified.  not have the right skill set or that the position was removed during the interview process of the company.
-Overqualified = worth more than they can afford to pay (If you really need the job and the issue of pay comes up in the interview, you might want to let them know that you need the income and would work for whatever [reasonable wage] that they could afford to pay [without sounding desperate]? )

-not have the right skill set = you may be educated and work well, but you lack the experience in the specific field that we're hiring for (insist that you're a quick learner and that the type of work is well within your parameters of your learning [in the interview - not over the phone])

-position was removed = ?? (I have no idea what that's supposed to mean? They found someone else that was more qualified, maybe?)

And I know that you're not a shark! What I was saying is that companies sometimes seek to hire shark managers to get rid of the dead weight and run a tight and efficient ship. If the hiring manager wants to be a niceguy, but still wants an efficiently ran company, they might want to have a shark as an assistant manager. This is one place where I wouldn't personally negotiate how I feel either (I'm not saying you should become a shark, I'm saying that sometimes it's what companies look for).
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 05:17:47 PM
there have been at least 6 positions that i have applied or interviewed for that the company has decided to go in a different direction.  outsourcing and turning the position more clerical.  where a bookkeeper would expect between 18-20 an hour, a clerk that can code AP would expect to be paid 10-12 an hour.

this is part of why i am questioning my ethics.  i have already turned down three bookkeeping positions from people that are scum, like the twice audited by the irs guy.

i have a company started, in case i can find clients.  but again, i am not really all that capable of selling my services.  i don't mind being self-employed.  i have a website for it, GL insurance, the ability to run a back office virtually.  i could manage several construction businesses at the same time.  but most single construction owners aren't interested.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 05:28:35 PM
i have been thinking about your question.

and i know you weren't calling me a shark.  my mother used to say that i was too forthright, too honest, too upfront.

so i have really tried to be more tactful.  it is foreign to me.  i loved construction partially because i work better with men than women.  they also have wicked senses of humor, usually, and wouldn't have an issue with my no bs mentality to work.  i am not one to chit-chat, gossip, or do the girlygirl thing.  when i am at work, i work. 
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 05:45:51 PM
i have a company started, in case i can find clients.  but again, i am not really all that capable of selling my services.  i don't mind being self-employed.  i have a website for it, GL insurance, the ability to run a back office virtually.  i could manage several construction businesses at the same time.  but most single construction owners aren't interested.
Find a seller or advertiser who will work to promote your business for cheap (or for a preset percentage of brought in real clients?). Trust that if a seller is willing to work for you based on commission that they are pretty sure of their skills (and if they're unsucessful, they don't get paid :-p).
so i have really tried to be more tactful.  it is foreign to me.  i loved construction partially because i work better with men than women.  they also have wicked senses of humor, usually, and wouldn't have an issue with my no bs mentality to work.  i am not one to chit-chat, gossip, or do the girlygirl thing.  when i am at work, i work.
I personally work better with women than with men because I find them easier to talk to (for me), but the rest of your assertions I agree with - work is a place to work, not a place to make friends.

I was thinking about alternative ways to make money... Did you ever consider moving in with your sister and renting out the other half of the duplex? It might be a last resort, but if you're a good business mind, you could easily turn a profit renting out a good-sized duplex for a fair price. If you and your sister are capable of sharing one of the three-bedroom parts and renting out the other, it's something to think about.

and I've heard before that no landlord ever wants to live next-door to a tenant, but look at Three's Company!
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on August 28, 2012, 06:17:44 PM
Okat Lucy , let me enilghting you ; havinr owned a few businesses in my time , unless a bookkeeper has invested in the company they are in no way management period ; just another employee.
 
When management hires some one it is on there head and what that person comes across as . It ain't TV pretain only count to perves , brain are what they are looking for , prety is nice but brains make you money.
 
Tell you what slick after you have owned your own business and worked 80 + hours a week then you'll have the right to open your
 trap.
 
Ag , if you are not sell yourself , then you must change you tactics .Relay on no one else , unless they will do it for nothing .
 
Also lucy's a twit .
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 28, 2012, 06:41:18 PM
I'm sorry :(
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 28, 2012, 07:02:12 PM
thanks, both of you.

and lucifer, you are helping.  even if you are reinforcing ideas that i have.  any ideas are helpful.  i might be able to find a new way of looking at things, that suits both my ethics and practical needs.

one of the things i had to learn was that being truthful does not always mean speaking the mos plain, unvarnished truth.  i do not have to VOLUNTEER that information, either.  that was a habit i developed from my mother's nervousness.  and not being that unvarnished truth doesn't mean that i am lying, obscuring, or messing with someone else's point of view.

i also had to learn that being supportive doesn't always mean being a doormat.

i don't judge, cheat, play games.  i try to put my money where my mouth is and live as cleanly as possible.  i have given up the anarchy and violence in my life.  i care about other people and try to put their needs before my own.  i can fight the good fight without being the aggressive, in-your-face person i was.  my faith, my beliefs, and my calling are all separate and my life gets better when even two of the three come together.  i live by what fits well in my life, not by pre-designated terms.

so any help is good.  it helps me re-evaluate.  its all good.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on August 31, 2012, 05:03:56 PM
well, i had an interview today.

and one of the strangest to date.  it is in my pay range that i am looking for.  it is in the town where i live.  which i was expecting to get the pay range in a city about 30 miles away.

the guy had some off-putting ways throughout the entire conversation.  and yet, i had a second interview scheduled by the time i left.

the person i would be working for sounds... not mentally healthy environment.  severe micromanaging.  100% perfection rate expectation.  hourly deadlines.  in a quiet, unnassuming workplace where most of my tasks would be well defined and i would not be in charge of anyone else but myself.  which, after being in management and on call for nearly 20 years, appeals to me.

he would ask me if i had any questions. i would answer.  he didn't realize i was answering and give me another dissertation on his company. my questions were about the position.  and then he would sit back after his yet another dissertation and ask me what my questions were.  i had to almost forcibly state: my questions are about the position- is my understanding of what you are looking for correct?

so... odd. 

and he wants to have better customer service that the big boys in his industry by having his clients not call in and enter their data themselves into the system online.  so... how is that better customer service?

i did pay close attention to my own responses.  i think my active listening skills are part of why i blow interviews.  i think i am coming across as more serious and stern than i actually am, when i am trying to be patient with my interviewer, because most interviewers i have met talk excessively.

so anyone got any ideas?  I am normally a quiet person, so "chatting" is not a "be yourself" trait for me.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: lucifer on August 31, 2012, 07:47:04 PM
and he wants to have better customer service that the big boys in his industry by having his clients not call in and enter their data themselves into the system online.  so... how is that better customer service?
Do you mean that he wants to have his clients using automated forms online? That's horrible customer service, in my opinion. I'm personally perfectly fine reading and filling out online forms, but a lot of people still don't like the impersonal feeling of telling a computer what your needs and issues are... Bad customer service.

Quote
i did pay close attention to my own responses.  i think my active listening skills are part of why i blow interviews.  i think i am coming across as more serious and stern than i actually am, when i am trying to be patient with my interviewer, because most interviewers i have met talk excessively.
I don't know... I personally dislike people who ramble about stuff that's not relevent to the work. IMO, it's polite to NOT waste the company's time by chatting while you're supposed to be working and this supercedes anyone else's needs to talk or be friendly (unless that someone else is a customer and your job is customer service, but even that has limits).

Quote
so anyone got any ideas?  I am normally a quiet person, so "chatting" is not a "be yourself" trait for me.
Ditto... What did you want ideas about? (I don't understand what that last question was in reference to)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on September 02, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
sorry i have not gotten back to this.  my adopted sister has finally fallen into semi-coma.  which is a blessing  (lung cancer that has gone to her liver, bones, and brain.)

after a lot of thinking and discussion with frogprince, i think i am understanding where i am going wrong.  to some extent. 

i am not "engaging" during an interview.  i am active listening and being patient.  as, i think i wrote above.  interviewers are not looking for the tasks and traits they want in an employee.  they are looking for interest, common ground/ideals, and who the person is that they are hiring.  not the skills the person has or how suitable the person is for the job.

i am not good at chit chat or small talk.  give me a problem to solve, i am good.  give me a weeping/distraught person, i am good.  give me something to DO, i am good. 

i have read so many article that give the interview advice regarding - be yourself, be transparent.  but don't be negative.  don't try to prove that you are the best candidate for the job.  show self-confidence.

so- i am looking to be more hmm.... "professionally polite and give conversation with a goal of getting the job but not revealing my personal life." kind of way.  i don't feel that my personal life should mix professionally, except with regard to my behavior and actions.  some personal discourse is important.  but i do not like to open myself up at work, as i have been denied advancement in the past.  mostly because i don't "know responsibility" because i do not have children.  apparently, taking care of my mother and my sister and frogprince all these years and the fact that i have lost 8 children doesn't count.  (can you taste the bitterness?)

i have also had people discover that i am pagan and deliberately find fault with my work so as to get a write up and therefore screw my 360 reviews for advancement. 

i live an alternate lifestyle.  that is my choice.  i have no need to cram it down someone else's throat.  but i do not like their christianity crammed down mine, either.

i have learned to steer clear of any position where, right in the interview, the reviewer says- well, we all go to church together.  outside of work, of course.  with the implication that i should do the same, if i want to get along.

i think the active listening is good at helping me steer clear of the irs-audited guys and the church-compliance people. 

so- any suggestions that anyone has on how to be more engaging would be helpful.  thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on September 27, 2012, 06:58:09 PM
well...

i asked for clarity and boy, have i gotten it.

i had the best non-interview interview today.  the woman i met with completely took apart my resume and explained to me why i am not getting call backs and why i have sucked so badly at interviews.  she was so helpful and nice. 

i take my creative side out when i am looking for a job.  my resume stands out only because it is overwhelming and looks like it has been hit with confetti, from all the bullets.

she gave me homework to do, to re-write my resume.  and this woman worked with the DOL for 14 years, helping to write and ghost-write resumes.

so, i pass this on to you all:

* only use 10 years of experience/job history
* don't hide the skills that would attract an employer to you at the bottom or listing in a job description.  use a short bulleted list under your education
* use graphics to break up your resume and draw attention to the more important aspects.  simple, clean lines, bolded text in some places, and movement-causing subtle bullets.
* Bold and oversize your name at the top, with your contact information smaller.  when people sort through resumes, you want your name to be eye-catching, but not garish.
* do not use more than 10 bullets for each job that you put down.  use descriptions in half sentences that contain action words, to create curiosity and movement.
* only put the things you are proud of doing on your resume/job descriptions, not a skill set based on the amount of time that you spent doing those tasks.  (that comes half from me and half from the woman who helped me today)
* put the mm/yy start and end points of a position at the END of the line. otherwise, people try to calculate instead of read.


basically, because i used general descriptions, there was too much room for interpretation.  and because i had over 30 bullets in one job, i was telling all about me.  so the person would make up their minds before meeting me and putting me up against someone that they actually spoke with.

i figured out after leaving the interview that my resume is also a conversation stopper, not starter.  there was so much general detail, it leaves people with nothing to talk to me about, even if i do get called for an interview.  i had nothing to say, nothing to point out- hey i can do this, that i come across as aloof and non-engaging.  the resume acts as a deterrent because it is too blunt. 

so, now i have  separate resumes, based on skill set, and i am about to make out a third.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Draconis Rex on September 27, 2012, 07:20:38 PM
Hi Aunty,
What I do is I keep a general purpose CV on my puter, and depending on the job I'm going for I make adjustments so the CV is geared for the post I'm after. I always keep the original AS IS so it's always there. The points you illustrated above are very similar to the formats we use here. For one particular job I have had, I would have so many bullets it would probably take up three pages alone.  :o  But, as I say I can add to it or subtract as I need to.

I wish you well on your continued search, and may the Goddess help you find the right one.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: auntygreens on September 27, 2012, 07:44:55 PM
thank you.

i am seeking a healthy change in my life.  there is a lot tied up in this thread that i haven't touched on.  but mostly, it revolves around not being angry anymore.  being a bit__ to be a bit__, i lose myself in there, even if i am "right."  i don't have to give up my edges or my flaws.  but i can give up needing to be so aggressive. 

sighs.

i can't tell any of you how much i have needed this.  or how deep my appreciation for this place is right now.  i do not feel so.... despondent.  or adrift and second guessing all my choices.  and i haven't felt this way for nearly 20 years.  i am learning to be at peace, even when there is all this negativity around me.  i had it in the most abusive and violent time of my life, that inner grace.  when i stepped away from that tumultuous lifestyle is when the doubt crept in.  ah, there is a lot in that that i don't think i should talk about.  not now.

i realized, between yesterday and today, that i have helped to recreate this job into the one i left, when mom was sick.  and now i know how to not do that again.

some of that is from the advice of changing where i am looking for work.  and some of that is realizing that i do not have to be everything for my employer.  i can live up to my ethics without selling myself short and leaving myself wide open for my employer to exploit. doing that in the past gave me a lot of experience, education, and knowledge.  now, i need to apply those things to get what i need to be content and balanced between work, home, faith, and family. it isn't selling myself out or not putting my money where my mouth is.  its putting myself into healthier situations.

so, yeah- keep those insights coming.  they are helping.  hugs to all...
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Draconis Rex on September 28, 2012, 02:34:49 PM
We're all here for you AuntyGreens, anything you need.  ;)
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: oldghost on September 28, 2012, 08:04:06 PM
We're all here for you AuntyGreens, anything you need.  ;)
             Second that AG . TCC rescue squad on alert and standing by , call us when needed .
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Edorion on October 17, 2012, 06:27:30 PM
This may sound silly but think about what color clothes you're wearing to the interview. Colors send great subliminal messages such as honest, trustworthy, intelligent. Also, within the first few seconds, do a quick visual scan of the area to see if you can eels to any of the items in the room. Then use that as an icebreaker. I did that once with my probation officer and we talked about lighthouses for almost an hour and my case for about five minutes. Now, where everyone else has to check in every month, I only check in every three months. Lol. Hopefully this helps. If not, maybe at least you enjoyed the story.
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: Edorion on October 17, 2012, 06:29:27 PM
Edit: eels = relate
Title: Re: Ethical Light Side/ Dark Side quandry
Post by: searching on October 17, 2012, 06:45:34 PM
This above all: to thine own self be true,

Agree with this so much so I have the exact quote tattooed on my body. If it feels wrong to you it probably is wrong.