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Spiritual Connection => Wicca Q and A => Topic started by: RainDancer on October 03, 2012, 01:15:00 PM

Title: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: RainDancer on October 03, 2012, 01:15:00 PM
As I've been researching Wicca I've come across a couple of reincarnation theories, but it doesn't seem to be the prevailing theory. I'd like to here from experianced and new Wiccans on their believes.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on October 03, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
Most that I know do.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 03, 2012, 02:50:46 PM
I prefer to call it rebirth!

But then again Dragons are eternal!!!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Just Dave on October 03, 2012, 03:17:36 PM
In the "Pagan Q&A" section there's a post (or is it a thread?  I'm not up on the lingo) on reincarnation.  Some pretty interesting takes on the subject.

Personally, I'm still forming my opinion about it.  There have been several people throughout my life who I felt I knew well even though we had just met.  Reincarnation may explain this.  I also sometimes "remember" things that haven't happen in my life time, though this just might be a trick of my mind - like something I read or saw on TV that seems like a real memory to me.  (They say memory is the second thing to go, I forget what the first is.)

If anyone could recommend any books on the subjects of reincarnation and Summerland, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: JadeSpawn on October 03, 2012, 03:20:36 PM
From all that i have read so far, the belief of reincarnation in one form or another is one of the major beliefs of Wicca
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: majesticdoe on October 03, 2012, 03:23:46 PM
Personally, I find myself believing in reincarnation but with a stopping point. That point is where we can pass the test to enter into the afterlife, otherwise we're sent into another body for remedial lessons.

Again, that is what I believe. Reincarnation is a purely personal thing, there is no definite yes or no to the question.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: JadeSpawn on October 03, 2012, 03:39:46 PM
I am still learning, but for now i see it as our spirit continues the cycle of rebirth and death, until it feels content and ready to merge with the All, and join all the other spirits that have reached spiritual enlightenment.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Just Dave on October 03, 2012, 04:27:43 PM
From all that i have read so far, the belief of reincarnation in one form or another is one of the major beliefs of Wicca

Not that Scott Cunningham is THE authority on the subject, but he seems to be well respected here (plus, it’s the only reference I have handy at the moment  ;D ).  In Wicca, A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner, he says the following:

“As in eastern religions, Wicca also embraces the doctrine of reincarnation. . .”  But then goes on to say, “This isn’t something that should be believed.  Through contemplation, meditation, and self-analysis, many come to the point where they accept reincarnation as fact.”

Later in the book he makes a very good case for reincarnation – in fact, he devotes an entire chapter to the subject - but again, he concludes with, “Until you’ve decided for yourself, you may wish to reflect upon and consider the doctrine of reincarnation.”

So, I guess reincarnation is a “major belief” of Wicca.  But then, so is thinking for oneself.  ;)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 03, 2012, 04:59:08 PM
It must be bourne in mind, that although reincarnation/rebirth is generally accepted within Wicca, it is through choice of the individual, and not because we must as part of following our paths. Each of us must arrive at that defining moment for ourselves, or not as the case may be. Acceptance is a personal thing.

I would suggest, as JD has touched on, that a good bit of time studying this would give you more insight into the subject and possibly bring you closer to your own conclusion.



::Edit to add; I'm not sure I put that over the way I had intended, I think you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to say though.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Just Dave on October 03, 2012, 05:03:05 PM
Well said, Drac.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 03, 2012, 07:59:32 PM
My personal belief is that reincarnation isn't a choice - it is an assignment, as was the first birth so will be the many rebirths and also the last life, but you won't know what your last life is (was) until you finally reach the Summerland & have the collective knowledge of all your lifetimes retained within your soul.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: JadeSpawn on October 04, 2012, 12:14:35 AM
Hum, so was i close or way off. i mean i have come to except what i wrote about reincarnation to be true.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 04, 2012, 02:33:25 AM
Hum, so was i close or way off. i mean i have come to except what i wrote about reincarnation to be true.

Again I would say its something for the individual to conclude. There is nothing definitive in the final analysis. We as Pagans accept rebirth as the end of one life and preperation for the next. I couldn't explain the defining moment for myself though, the why's and wherefor's etc.

I would go along with Lucifer. But I also wonder if we continue to rebirth ad infinitum, or is there a point when we go on to summerland and there we remain eventually after reliving so many times. This is what I mean by  definitive.

Whether you were close or not is something you won't find out until its time to find out.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: RainDancer on October 04, 2012, 06:45:59 AM
Thank you guys very much for the prompt, concise, and helpful posts.

May The Lady's Light Keep The Darkness at Bay
RainDancer
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 04, 2012, 07:46:28 AM
Thank you guys very much for the prompt, concise, and helpful posts.

May The Lady's Light Keep The Darkness at Bay
RainDancer

Absolutely, Always happy to confuse and confound... ;) :D ;) :D ;) :D
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on October 04, 2012, 09:13:21 AM
I'm ready to accept that you guys here believe in reincarnation in whatever form you believe. What I always want to know is why you believe a particular thing? Where is your evidence (forgetting proof for now)?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know how people reach the conclusion that certain beliefs are true, while others aren't. 

At the present I regard myself as a spiritual atheist, for want of a better term. Give me evidence-based reasoning and I will change my mind. *insert quote from Xfiles here*
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: JadeSpawn on October 04, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
Well i wont attempt to justify what i believe but i cant explain more or less how i came to believe that.

Well i was brought up Catholic, and of course we all know that song and dance bout heaven, well when i first started my research into Wicca and read about reincarnation, i was discussing it with my wife. She too is interested in the path but very busy with her schooling to attempt taking on anymore at the time. Well as i was telling her was i was reading at the time, she asked me "so when i die, i wont end up with my family and loved ones?", well i thought bout it and it kinda just smacked me in the head. So i basically told her what i told you guys, and not only did it feel right to me, it even put her mind at ease. I guess sometimes, discussing how you feeling about it the cycle of reincarnation with someone, and not just regurgitating written text to them, but actually contemplate what it may mean to you, help one realize what is right for them.

Not sure if i just made it more confusing, but hope it helps.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: marisol on October 04, 2012, 12:13:16 PM
There is no way to prove reincarnation, as no one has returned to say it is true. Only the God and Goddess have knowledge of this mystery. Reincarnation teaches us that the "spark of light" or the
soul is indestructible. So the soul moves on continuously from one body to the next, as one life
ends the next life begins.

As our life ends it travels to Summerland to rest, until it is reborn. How long we rest in Summerland is unknown, no one who has returned has any memory of that.

Reincarnation is a personal belief. Most Wiccans I have spoken with do believe in reincarnation.
Many religions all over the world believe in reincarnation.  Many Pagans also believe. I also believe
I will be reincarnated. It's a comforting way to look at death as only the beginning.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on October 04, 2012, 12:38:00 PM
Noone really knows what the deal is until we pass.  So, only time will tell.  Reincarnation is a very sound belief imo.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 04, 2012, 03:42:22 PM
At the present I regard myself as a spiritual atheist, for want of a better term. Give me evidence-based reasoning and I will change my mind. *insert quote from Xfiles here*
What you seem to be from your description, Old Stoneface, is called Agnostic. It means that while you don't currently believe in the existence of a god/goddess or gods (plural) you are open to the possibility of being wrong. An Atheist is someone who entirely rejects the possibility of any gods and even if it could be proven they probably wouldn't accept it :-p (i.e. the difference between "I don't personally believe" and "There is no way it's possible")

As far as suggestive evidence, I could use the same argument that Christians would, which is that we have a universe that endlessly falls into chaos unless it's kept up but for some reason it managed to create us, and we manage to keep the said chaos at bay (or at least we trick ourselves into believing that we do...). Look around you, everything you see is decaying and falling apart (except for living things which haven't matured yet)... How is it that somewhere in this chaos things would stop falling apart long enough to spawn creatures intelligent enough to realize what was happening and then attempt to stop it?

However, you could be right and this could all be the ... effect of some uncaused cause some 15 billion years ago (or however old the universe is in this decade), but the real question you'd need to ask yourself is that if something caused the universe to be created, where did that something come from? The answer to this question for me is that I don't know and I don't care... What created the universe doesn't affect how I'm supposed to live my life :-p
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: C_A on October 05, 2012, 05:38:23 AM
Wiccans, (or, at least, Orthodox Wiccans...), believe in reincarnation.

Label it however you like...(I like "rebirth"!), but the point of it all, short answer, YES.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on October 07, 2012, 06:45:03 AM
At the present I regard myself as a spiritual atheist, for want of a better term. Give me evidence-based reasoning and I will change my mind. *insert quote from Xfiles here*
What you seem to be from your description, Old Stoneface, is called Agnostic. It means that while you don't currently believe in the existence of a god/goddess or gods (plural) you are open to the possibility of being wrong. An Atheist is someone who entirely rejects the possibility of any gods and even if it could be proven they probably wouldn't accept it :-p (i.e. the difference between "I don't personally believe" and "There is no way it's possible")

As far as suggestive evidence, I could use the same argument that Christians would, which is that we have a universe that endlessly falls into chaos unless it's kept up but for some reason it managed to create us, and we manage to keep the said chaos at bay (or at least we trick ourselves into believing that we do...). Look around you, everything you see is decaying and falling apart (except for living things which haven't matured yet)... How is it that somewhere in this chaos things would stop falling apart long enough to spawn creatures intelligent enough to realize what was happening and then attempt to stop it?

However, you could be right and this could all be the ... effect of some uncaused cause some 15 billion years ago (or however old the universe is in this decade), but the real question you'd need to ask yourself is that if something caused the universe to be created, where did that something come from? The answer to this question for me is that I don't know and I don't care... What created the universe doesn't affect how I'm supposed to live my life :-p


Actually I don't believe any gods or goddesses exist, but I believe in the spirituality of human beings. I just don't see any evidence that spirituality exists outside of the human brain. Nor do I see any need for it to exist elsewhere than my own head.
 As for the answers that have been given to my query (which was about religious belief in general, not just about reincarnation), I still am seeing no answer to "why?".
Don't sweat it; I've asked the same of christians, muslims, jehovah's witnesses and a scientologist. Still no satisfactory answer. I suspect there isn't one, but I'll keep searching.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on October 07, 2012, 06:58:52 AM
At the present I regard myself as a spiritual atheist, for want of a better term. Give me evidence-based reasoning and I will change my mind. *insert quote from Xfiles here*
What you seem to be from your description, Old Stoneface, is called Agnostic. It means that while you don't currently believe in the existence of a god/goddess or gods (plural) you are open to the possibility of being wrong. An Atheist is someone who entirely rejects the possibility of any gods and even if it could be proven they probably wouldn't accept it :-p (i.e. the difference between "I don't personally believe" and "There is no way it's possible")

As far as suggestive evidence, I could use the same argument that Christians would, which is that we have a universe that endlessly falls into chaos unless it's kept up but for some reason it managed to create us, and we manage to keep the said chaos at bay (or at least we trick ourselves into believing that we do...). Look around you, everything you see is decaying and falling apart (except for living things which haven't matured yet)... How is it that somewhere in this chaos things would stop falling apart long enough to spawn creatures intelligent enough to realize what was happening and then attempt to stop it?

However, you could be right and this could all be the ... effect of some uncaused cause some 15 billion years ago (or however old the universe is in this decade), but the real question you'd need to ask yourself is that if something caused the universe to be created, where did that something come from? The answer to this question for me is that I don't know and I don't care... What created the universe doesn't affect how I'm supposed to live my life :-p


Actually I don't believe any gods or goddesses exist, but I believe in the spirituality of human beings. I just don't see any evidence that spirituality exists outside of the human brain. Nor do I see any need for it to exist elsewhere than my own head.
 As for the answers that have been given to my query (which was about religious belief in general, not just about reincarnation), I still am seeing no answer to "why?".
Don't sweat it; I've asked the same of christians, muslims, jehovah's witnesses and a scientologist. Still no satisfactory answer. I suspect there isn't one, but I'll keep searching.

Jfc dude, The Witnesses? 

Damn, a true atheist based on the bolded part.

It's tough for me to look at quite a bit in this life and not see the divine.  I am a pantheist at heart, so I see The Divine in most things.


Wiccans, (or, at least, Orthodox Wiccans...), believe in reincarnation.

Label it however you like...(I like "rebirth"!), but the point of it all, short answer, YES.

Good to see you C_A :)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: marisol on October 07, 2012, 07:08:13 AM
It's wonderful to see you around C_A.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on October 07, 2012, 11:17:49 AM
EBS - yeah, the witnesses. They have a strong presence in this locality; in fact, I'm quite friendly with a few of them, so long as we don't discuss faith issues. But arguing with them can be very entertaining ;-)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 07, 2012, 02:58:52 PM
As for the answers that have been given to my query (which was about religious belief in general, not just about reincarnation), I still am seeing no answer to "why?".
Don't sweat it; I've asked the same of christians, muslims, jehovah's witnesses and a scientologist. Still no satisfactory answer. I suspect there isn't one, but I'll keep searching.
Why? You can't ask someone why they have faith, because there is no answer based anywhere which could be scientifically measured.

I could tell you that I know that the Goddess exists because of the parts and pieces of information that she's given specifically to me on numerous occasions and because of a few conversations which we've had (yes... conversations with the divine)... and a few dreams that were sent to me from somewhere beyond my own mind...

However, The Goddess as we know her may just be a prefix... or possibly a genetic memory that was built into our brains. It may be that she is no longer here but we all have the memory of her somewhere deep down if we can manage to find ourselves void of the external things which we've been tought and clear of our own thoughts...

I can't prove it, and I'll never be able to prove it. If you don't believe - there's nothing that any human can say that would make you believe... or understand why we believe like we do... but that's ok, because The Goddess doesn't demand your praise or even an acknowledgement :-p

::edit::
If you were asking specifically about reincarnation because that's what the book says (pick one, that's what it'll say)... It's a long-standing belief that has (in one form or another) peppered itself through cultures since the beginning of human civilization. It would make sense that if you can't experience it all in one life (there's no way that a human can experience EVERYTHING this world has to offer in one lifetime... it's not possible [you'll only die one way, as an example]) then your spirit should be given as much time as it needs to explore and experience this world. Here's another example of no proof, and it doesn't really matter. If I'm right, I'm right... YAY! If I'm wrong, well... I wouldn't be around to wallow in being wrong, so it's no big deal.

Belief in an afterlife or a rebirth is a great way to say that death is no big deal - nothing to fear, nothing to lament, nothing to worry about - it's just a part of life.

(This doesn't change how I feel about prematurely causing an end to someone's [yours or another person's] current life...) (this last part isn't directed at you, Old Stoneface)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 08, 2012, 03:30:56 PM
So our souls are like . . . . some kind of hard drive? And at the end of our lives, when they won't re-boot any more, and they're full of malicious rootkits, trojan horse viruses all zombying for some botnet somewhere, when our system is no longer operable, some divine hand  takes us offline, unplugs us from the motherboard, and . . . . . . what?  Reformats our C Drives? 


Keeps our documents folder on a separate partition perhaps?

The question in this scenario for me, is whether or not we have global administrative powers. To access the partition where (hopefully) the experience and wisdom of our "previous lives installs" are kept.


If we are, then why can't we remember these installs at will? Why can't we remember this previously stored data, and then, by cross referencing any corresponding data stored on hard copy records, prove empirically that past life memory has some validity?


Does user modification to the OS, or to the hardware configuration invalidate the warranty? If we start running software that hasn't had verification from the system manufacturer, do we breach the contract? Instead of getting reformatted, will we be recycled? Melted down for our metal parts?


On my computer, I don't mind running software sourced from P-P torrent sites. If I get hardware conflicts, I can replace bits, until I get it sorted. If there's a sticker on the case that says "No user serviceable parts" I'll ignore it, because I've found that much of the time that's a downright lie.


So running with this analogy, I've probably hacked my spiritual C Drive completely. If I had Global admin status in the first place, then why was the drive partitioned? If I didn't, then I've usurped the power of some spiritual systems admin. In which case, what does "free will" really mean?


I want my cake, and I want to eat it. What's the point of having a cake, if you're prevented from eating it? If that's the kind of cake you're selling, then I don't want it.


If I've made my bed, then yes, I'm quite happy to lie in it. Why would I have made my bed, if I wasn't going to lie in it? I might even get some cake crumbs it. Bite me.


I'll tweak the analogy a little now. Instead of having previous documents in that partition, there's an automated remote control unit, set to factory defaults. It's fairly unimaginatively programmed, but it's robust enough to be functional.


Now, if there's an autopilot running the program I like to call; "me", then that's wonderful. It explains how I've managed to keep my meat mobile for 46 years. It explains "luck". It also suggests some kind of intelligent design.


But I want the option of manual over ride. Without this, the "me" program is no more than another piece of botnet malware. Filling up the meat world with spiritual spam. There might be something that's been overlooked in my spam folder. It happens. I demand to see. "Oh my, there's some ugly complicated shit in there". Well? I'm a complicated kinda person. I'll cope. Or not. Either way, I'm not giving global control over MY bloody C Drive, to some overlord nanny algorithm, no matter how stable it is.


Once you've accessed the partition, you can't really just do a sys.rest and pretend you never saw it. The Genie won't go back in the bottle. It's not my fault. I didn't design the runtime environment. I'm just going to hack it for my own curiosities sake. The "me" program is human. Humans are dynamically predisposed towards curious behaviour. If that's a bug in the human program, then it's probably best to have another look at the code.


But if our curiosity is an A.I Driver that periodically opens software expansion packs, then my analogy is still good.


So a rare thing has happened. From beginning to end, one of my interminably long and rambling posts (no no, It's ok) hasn't contradicted itself, fallen apart, or (hopefully) insulted the intelligence of anyone who has followed it's (admittedly shaky) logic. So I'd best shut up now before I ruin it.       
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 08, 2012, 03:55:58 PM
Quote from: Serpentium link=topic=8045.msg178902#msg178902
The question in this scenario for me, is whether or not we have global administrative powers. To access the partition where (hopefully) the experience and wisdom of our "previous lives installs" are kept.
Can we access it? There are channels...

Are we supposed to? Well... it probably wasn't part of the original design, but it does happen & the divine system admins can't really fault us for utilizing said channels...

If it was that big of a deal, the system admins should - like you mentioned - patch the exploit :-p
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 08, 2012, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: Serpentium link=topic=8045.msg178902#msg178902
The question in this scenario for me, is whether or not we have global administrative powers. To access the partition where (hopefully) the experience and wisdom of our "previous lives installs" are kept.
Can we access it? There are channels...

Are we supposed to? Well... it probably wasn't part of the original design, but it does happen & the divine system admins can't really fault us for utilizing said channels...

If it was that big of a deal, the system admins should - like you mentioned - patch the exploit :-p
What do you think the "Religion" clause is, if not some kind of admin bugfix? Blind Faith? Papal infallibilty? Halal/Haram? All tropes to discourage user interference with the 'supernatural' aspects of the runtime process. Historically, many leaps in human understanding are branded as Heresy and suppressed. Creating a creature with incurable curiosity and then telling them not to question certain things is not the act of a benevolent creator. It's the act of a frightened despot. Which scenario is it? Are we going to get punished for the way we were supposedly created? Or rewarded? Because that's what it all comes down to, Theologically.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 08, 2012, 06:19:49 PM
What do you think the "Religion" clause is, if not some kind of admin bugfix?
Another user who should be minding their own F----N- business trying to tell others what they should or shouldn't do to exert some level of control that they aren't entitled to over other people...?

The way that many organized religions these days are practiced has been perverted and exploited by the clergy & is nothing more than an attempt to maintain control... It's got very little to do with the will of the divine system admins (...)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: RainDancer on October 10, 2012, 07:30:21 AM
Old Stoneface-

I believe and have always believed that there is something greater then myself, something that created us. It feels like a ball of light in my gut (not the most elegant of analogies). To think and be with the Goddess and The God is nothing sort of true happiness. Well I cannot prove that my deities exist, there is actually a good, scientifically based argument for intelligent design (i.e A Creator/s). I find this point most excellently argued in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

Blessed Be In Whatever Path You Choose
RainDancer
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on October 10, 2012, 10:05:05 AM
Old Stoneface-

I believe and have always believed that there is something greater then myself, something that created us. It feels like a ball of light in my gut (not the most elegant of analogies). To think and be with the Goddess and The God is nothing sort of true happiness. Well I cannot prove that my deities exist, there is actually a good, scientifically based argument for intelligent design (i.e A Creator/s). I find this point most excellently argued in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

Blessed Be In Whatever Path You Choose
RainDancer

Fine RainDancer, believe what you need to, I have no problem with that. But scientific arguments for ID? Seriously? Also, I'm not Wiccan, so am not certain, but this is the first I've heard that the God and Goddess have been accused of Creation. Someone will put me right, I'm sure.

Lucifer -thanks for not wanting to kill me. I always appreciate that kind of consideration.

Serpentium - nice one. Thank you for making me giggle like an idiot.

Meantime, this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: oldghost on October 10, 2012, 11:22:01 AM
What you believe it true but true only to you . What other believe is true but true only to them.
 
There is only one way to be sure , just wait for your time to be over then you'll know.
 
See you on the other side  ;) ;) .
 
Or when I get back here  ;D .
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: marisol on October 10, 2012, 11:52:40 AM
It's all good and well to debate  this topic, but when we experience the loss of someone close it's difficult to have much comfort in the belief that they will return. We feel only the loss in the immediate days after. My belief in reincarnation doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, it's ok to hurt and
feel sad. The thought that I will never see them again in this life time does not betray my belief.
Rather my belief gives me faith we will meet again.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on October 10, 2012, 12:18:01 PM
The thought that I will never see them again in this life doesn't bother me that much.  You could meet someone on the street that has been reborn but you just don't know it is them. 
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 10, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
With personality and morality (transient states, at best) removed from the whole scenario, life, evolution, perception, the whole of creation really, is all just a data management system. We learn, reproduce and our updated DNA makes a new file. Recessive genes are stored in some kind of cache memory, in case they become relevant. Religion is probably an anti virus system that needs updating from time to time. "God" is probably a huge cosmic server bank where all the data from our reformatted hard drives gets collated, and shuffled into new combinations before uploaded back into our waiting C Drives.

Maybe.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: RainDancer on October 10, 2012, 01:39:44 PM
Old Stoneface-

I believe and have always believed that there is something greater then myself, something that created us. It feels like a ball of light in my gut (not the most elegant of analogies). To think and be with the Goddess and The God is nothing sort of true happiness. Well I cannot prove that my deities exist, there is actually a good, scientifically based argument for intelligent design (i.e A Creator/s). I find this point most excellently argued in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

Blessed Be In Whatever Path You Choose
RainDancer

Fine RainDancer, believe what you need to, I have no problem with that. But scientific arguments for ID? Seriously? Also, I'm not Wiccan, so am not certain, but this is the first I've heard that the God and Goddess have been accused of Creation. Someone will put me right, I'm sure.

Lucifer -thanks for not wanting to kill me. I always appreciate that kind of consideration.

Serpentium - nice one. Thank you for making me giggle like an idiot.

Meantime, this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)

First of all I'll watch your video when you watch mine. Second of all there is only weak and murky arguments for evolution. The chances of life starting randomly are the same chances you have of pulling many slot machines, winning each time, and in the exact same order. Also the complexity of many organisms mean that to have evolved gradually means that they would have had to constantly evolved from the second they started. I have heard plenty of theories about after the first cell, but none on how that cell came to be. I've heard everything from on the backs of crystals to spontanious generation in evolution and none of them seem to make any sense.

Blessed Be,
RainDancer
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 10, 2012, 03:34:39 PM
Fine RainDancer, believe what you need to, I have no problem with that. But scientific arguments for ID? Seriously? Also, I'm not Wiccan, so am not certain, but this is the first I've heard that the God and Goddess have been accused of Creation. Someone will put me right, I'm sure.

Lucifer -thanks for not wanting to kill me. I always appreciate that kind of consideration.
The Goddess and The God are the mother and the father of living beings on the planet. As far as my personal beliefs, the materials to allow life to exist were already here, but they couldn't possibly have combined themselves in a way such that life as we know it would have been able to get as far as it did without... a little help.

That is, the Mother and Father seeded this place & nutured the life (- & possibly encouraged the evolution of - ) but were not the actual creators of The Universe, but I'd still maintain that what created it (and/or what created them) doesn't really matter as far as how I'm supposed to live my life :-p

And I don't want to kill anyone, Old Stoneface... Don't take it personally :-p
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 10, 2012, 03:49:45 PM
Old Stoneface-

I believe and have always believed that there is something greater then myself, something that created us. It feels like a ball of light in my gut (not the most elegant of analogies). To think and be with the Goddess and The God is nothing sort of true happiness. Well I cannot prove that my deities exist, there is actually a good, scientifically based argument for intelligent design (i.e A Creator/s). I find this point most excellently argued in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

Blessed Be In Whatever Path You Choose
RainDancer

Fine RainDancer, believe what you need to, I have no problem with that. But scientific arguments for ID? Seriously? Also, I'm not Wiccan, so am not certain, but this is the first I've heard that the God and Goddess have been accused of Creation. Someone will put me right, I'm sure.

Lucifer -thanks for not wanting to kill me. I always appreciate that kind of consideration.

Serpentium - nice one. Thank you for making me giggle like an idiot.

Meantime, this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)

First of all I'll watch your video when you watch mine. Second of all there is only weak and murky arguments for evolution.

Blessed Be,
RainDancer
Are you serious? Evolution may not provide all the answers, but those answers it does give, are all backed up with empirical research, and solid evidence.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: marisol on October 10, 2012, 04:36:53 PM
Hello cutie tell me of evolution.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 10, 2012, 04:41:05 PM
Didn't they teach you about it at school?
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Earthbound Spirit on October 10, 2012, 10:19:07 PM
Hell, I believed in evolution back when I was a Christian.  Who was I to say what method God choose to use for creation?
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on October 10, 2012, 10:36:01 PM
Old Stoneface-

I believe and have always believed that there is something greater then myself, something that created us. It feels like a ball of light in my gut (not the most elegant of analogies). To think and be with the Goddess and The God is nothing sort of true happiness. Well I cannot prove that my deities exist, there is actually a good, scientifically based argument for intelligent design (i.e A Creator/s). I find this point most excellently argued in the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

Blessed Be In Whatever Path You Choose
RainDancer

Fine RainDancer, believe what you need to, I have no problem with that. But scientific arguments for ID? Seriously? Also, I'm not Wiccan, so am not certain, but this is the first I've heard that the God and Goddess have been accused of Creation. Someone will put me right, I'm sure.

Lucifer -thanks for not wanting to kill me. I always appreciate that kind of consideration.

Serpentium - nice one. Thank you for making me giggle like an idiot.

Meantime, this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U)

First of all I'll watch your video when you watch mine. Second of all there is only weak and murky arguments for evolution. The chances of life starting randomly are the same chances you have of pulling many slot machines, winning each time, and in the exact same order. Also the complexity of many organisms mean that to have evolved gradually means that they would have had to constantly evolved from the second they started. I have heard plenty of theories about after the first cell, but none on how that cell came to be. I've heard everything from on the backs of crystals to spontanious generation in evolution and none of them seem to make any sense.

Blessed Be,
RainDancer

Your video's a movie, and I'm out of the country for a week from today, so I'll watch it when I get back. My video's only ten minutes.

If you think the arguments for evolution are weak and murky then you haven't understood them. There is no faith involved, it's all based on evidence and observation. I'm not saying faith is not a legitimate way to view the world, just that it is not based on evidence, and until I see evidence, I cannot believe.
 My father died this year; he was an atheist, and at the end neither of us believed we would see each other again. It's a personal tragedy, but that's the way life works. Deal with it.

Of course, I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 11, 2012, 01:59:32 AM
Hell, I believed in evolution back when I was a Christian.  Who was I to say what method God choose to use for creation?

                                ^^^^^This^^^^^

There are still people who disbelieve evolution, despite empirical, documented evidence. Its like picking up a pencil and saying "I don't believe this was made from a tree". It doesn't matter whether your a Pagan or a Christian or A.N.Other, What is wrong with accepting that evolution happened and simply trust that whatever deity you follow had a hand in our development?
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 11, 2012, 03:58:09 PM
There are still people who disbelieve evolution, despite empirical, documented evidence. Its like picking up a pencil and saying "I don't believe this was made from a tree". It doesn't matter whether your a Pagan or a Christian or A.N.Other, What is wrong with accepting that evolution happened and simply trust that whatever deity you follow had a hand in our development?
There is no proof that macro-evolution has EVER occured. This is because in order to be proven it would have to be observed, and the amount of time that it supposedly takes for this occur more than spans human existence...

Also, it being a theory with...   supporting evidence... doesn't make it any more valid than a belief that a white-haired, bearded man single-handedly created this place and all the creatures within it some 6012 years ago.

Supporting evidence is far from proof... Creation and Evolution are not mutually exclusive, but if someone decides to think that they are then it's their right (and really, since neither can be proven at this time, it doesn't make sense to argue the validity of EITHER of them)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: oldghost on October 11, 2012, 04:51:45 PM
White- haired bearded man , hell that must have been me.
 
Somehow make more sense for it to be a Women , with long red hair cute little .............  Think on it when was the last time a man gave birth to anything that was alive . My vote goes to the Mystery Mother .
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 11, 2012, 05:24:51 PM
By your own argument there is no proof that it NEVER happened. The occurence doesn't have to be observed to make it conclusive. the remnants of the occurence produces its own evidence.

Schroedingers cat?

The theory has supporting evidence which in itself gives the conclusion to the theoretical. there is more and more evidence that proves the development of mankind turning up even now.

Supporting evidence is far from proof...

What??? Then what is "supporting evidence" then if it isn't proof? Supporting evidence by definition is in fact proof.

Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive, agreed but why can they not be inter-related at an early stage of development?
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 11, 2012, 05:31:21 PM
Magick Mother, or the Mystic Sister?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rj19DR3XeA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rj19DR3XeA&feature=related)

(To make up for the Gary Glitter link earlier, enjoy)
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 11, 2012, 05:34:17 PM
By your own argument there is no proof that it NEVER happened. The occurence doesn't have to be observed to make it conclusive. the remnants of the occurence produces its own evidence.


Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive, agreed but why can they not be inter-related at an early stage of development?
Because there ain't no room for argument in the Old Testament. There's no "compromise" interface, just Heresy!
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: lucifer on October 11, 2012, 05:42:36 PM
There's also supporting evidence for intelligent design... Just because you can look at the effects of something and come up with a conclusion in your mind that may satisfy your question as what you believe to be an answer doesn't mean that the answer is correct.

What I was stating is that since neither can be proven (and NEITHER can be proven... there is no proof for either, but there is evidence to be used that could suggest both) then it's moot to argue the validity of one over the other. Both are theories, NO, they're not mutually exclusive however neither should be taken as the absolute truth. Theories...
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: oldghost on October 11, 2012, 05:47:58 PM
This has nothing to do with this thread .
 
Just miss having the Moon Sisters here loved there music.
 
Not get back to your bantering.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 11, 2012, 05:55:28 PM
Of course, I hadn't factored in the old testament. With that as part of the equation It all stands to reason of course!  :D :D :D :D

The theory for the development of mankind is gradually being dwindled away, the links are being found that tie so much together. There is still so much yet to be found to link it all of course, it's when they come to the original concept of living beings that the real work is going to have to be done. This is one aspect that may in fact never be resolved; the creation or initial inception.  This is what allows for the consideration of initial creation FOLLOWED by evolution.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 11, 2012, 06:14:27 PM
Stood in that place of perfect stillness, terms like "Evolution"  "Young Earth" or "Six days" are utterly meaningless, because in a very real sense, everything happens in the same, timeless instant. There is only "now".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_irWNn7nyT0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_irWNn7nyT0)

Or that's what "Burned out Bill" from across the Hallway just said. 
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 11, 2012, 06:23:24 PM
Ok, relatively speaking.

BTW, Whats with all the lengthy vids?
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Serpentium on October 11, 2012, 06:33:32 PM
just a bit of music




eta; For the hippys.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: C_A on October 24, 2012, 02:55:22 PM
So...we evolved from slime.  I have no problem, there.

What separates us?

Nothing.

We all exist at the same time for a reason. 

What is that reason?  You'll find out when They WANT you to.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on October 24, 2012, 03:36:48 PM
Something to consider, and its been mentioned before elsewhere; What we once were and what we will be in the future, is the same as what we are now. We are star stuff, our molecules are the same as they always have been and the same as they yet will be. We are made up of the same stuff as the birds, the fish, the earth, the moon and so on. What matters whether we evolved from pond scum? or just suddenly appeared? we are what we are on this physical plane.

The question in hand is whether we as Pagans believe in reincarnation, I believe most Pagans do believe where as others do not. It's a very personal thing to each person; what I believe as far as reincarnation is concerned may not be the same as another believer holds to be true. There will be no definitive answer until your at the final door. Infact it may be then that you'll also find the final answer to the creation or evolution question too.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: oldghost on October 24, 2012, 06:42:22 PM
I'll say yes to the reincarnation but what if it is happening for the sole purposes of us trying to get something right . Something that until we do get it right we can, t move on to whatever?.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Rowanmarie on December 04, 2012, 07:25:44 PM
Hmmmm I always took reincarnation as in the principle of energy never getting destroyed and it simply being then reforming as new. I apologize my explanations suck ;D
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: marisol on December 04, 2012, 11:58:43 PM
No Rowan your explanation does not suck. Ya know we have no instruction booklet, we probably
wouldn't read it anyway, being human ya know.

I believe everything was created by the devine, who also created our deities to be caretakers of
the earth and to teach us how to live with each other and the Mother. In caring for the Mother
we celebrate the blessings of life. When we have served our purpose, our time comes to pass on to Summerland, and await re-incarnation. This is my version, I believe we all have our own.
But none are wrong, just different.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Old Stoneface on December 05, 2012, 05:59:33 AM
No Rowan your explanation does not suck. Ya know we have no instruction booklet, we probably
wouldn't read it anyway, being human ya know.

I believe everything was created by the devine, who also created our deities to be caretakers of
the earth and to teach us how to live with each other and the Mother. In caring for the Mother
we celebrate the blessings of life. When we have served our purpose, our time comes to pass on to Summerland, and await re-incarnation. This is my version, I believe we all have our own.
But none are wrong, just different.

I look around me, and it seems that the divine didn't bother to read the instruction booklet, either.
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: Draconis Rex on December 05, 2012, 07:05:14 AM
No Rowan your explanation does not suck. Ya know we have no instruction booklet, we probably
wouldn't read it anyway, being human ya know.

I believe everything was created by the devine, who also created our deities to be caretakers of
the earth and to teach us how to live with each other and the Mother. In caring for the Mother
we celebrate the blessings of life. When we have served our purpose, our time comes to pass on to Summerland, and await re-incarnation. This is my version, I believe we all have our own.
But none are wrong, just different.

I look around me, and it seems that the divine didn't bother to read the instruction booklet, either.

Ah! So thats where we got it from?!?!  :o :o
Title: Re: Do Wiccans Believe in Reincarnation?
Post by: kriv on December 08, 2012, 09:19:00 AM
Science and research of old mammal bones seems to somehow mess up truthful mythologies  ::) I believe into reincarnation and evolution of beings. If in this universe happens to be darwinism and genetic heritage at least on one planet, what does it proof? To me it proves that once again it is possible to rebirth or reincarnate as a human, somehow. In my understanding humans are older than the universe in which we are born into flesh.

-- kriv