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Spiritual Connection => The Earth-based Path => Topic started by: Wricker Dreadtemper on February 28, 2014, 02:34:03 AM

Title: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on February 28, 2014, 02:34:03 AM
The following quote box is from this thread (http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=3900.msg214015#new) in the Introduction forum:

Wricker Dreadtemper, I nosed around a bit, and I have to tell you The Dynion Mwyn Tradition of Witchcraft looks to me like it was made up about 10 minutes ago by a couple of high school kids. Just for starters, they have Nimue as a Corn Queen? Corn is a New World food, not Welsh, and Nimue was a witch not a goddess. That's just one example and it doesn't bode well. [...]

Here's another one for you Wricker.  The Goddess Donn (Danu) is represented by a winged ankh?  Come again?  I don't even...

Regarding corn, from A Popular History of the Ancient Britons or the Welsh People (Sir John Evans, 1901):

"The great traveler, Pythias, came into Britain about the year 330 B.C., and visited many parts of the island, and sailed along the coast to the north. He visted the country twice, and saw more of it than any other ancient visitor. In the course of his travels he noticed the condition of the country, and especially its agriculture. The book containing the history of his travels has been lost, but portions of it have been preserved in the works of some ancient authors. He visited especially the south-east, and there he saw much corn in the fields, and observed that the farmers gathered the sheaves into large barns where the threshing was done. He remarked that, owing to the absence of much sun and presence of much rain and many clouds, the threshing could not be done in the open air, as in countries of brighter sun and more genial climate. He also remarked that further north corn could not be grown. The country, he observed,  consisted mostly of forest and marsh, but there were open spaces cleared in the forests for the cattle and the sheep where they were kept and fed. Another traveler, a Greek, who came to Britain 200 years later, was Posidonius, whose testimony has been preserved by Diadorus Siculus. According to him, the harvest consisted of cutting the ears of the corn off, and storing them in the ground, and taking them therefrom daily and prepared for food, the oldest taken first. This testimony was different from that of Pythias given above. Probably they applied to different portions of the country, where customs differed in varied climes and among different tribes."

So it seems corn was an 'old world' crop as well, and one that was cultivated by ancient Welsh tribes.

However, concerning Nimue's status as Goddess (or an aspect of feminine divinity), I can't speak to your source(s), but I haven't come across that name in association with the Goddess here (http://www.dynionmwyn.net/dynionmwyn/lesson1/thirteen15.html).

Quote
[...]Although the Goddess is known by many names during the aeons of mankind, the Cymry frequently call the Triple Goddess by the names of Arianrhod for the maiden, Rhiannon for the mother, and Cerridwen for the crone. [...]

These are a few of the names which have been associated with the Goddess:
Artemis, Annis, Anwyn
Brigid, Bridgid, Brigit
Briggett, Bride, Bridley
Bronwyn, Branwen, Cerridwen
Ceridwen, Ceres, Dana
Danu, Daphne, Diane
Dion, Iona, Ione
Isis, Kerry, Kerrie
Leto, Maerie, May
Mai, May, Mary
Marion, Miriam, Melusine
Nana, Nona, Pana
Panu, Tana, Tanya [...]

A cursory google search led me to the article, Some Things I Know About Nimue (by Valerie Walker, originally published in Witch Eye Magazine, 2004).

An excerpt:

"Strangely enough, Nimue, the Maiden aspect of the Triple Goddess, doesn't get written about very much by Feris, especially when contrasted with her opposite number (and occasional Twin) the Blue God. This may simply be that the majority of writers in Feri are gay men, who find the concept of an adolescent boy-god much more appealing than that of a little girl-goddess. Another reason might be that the Maiden is closer to the Crone than to the Mother: in the seasonal cycle, the Crone becomes the Maiden in the spring, and in many myths (e.g., that of Kore/Persephone) the Maiden goes to the Underworld to encounter the Crone and become transformed."

Not a corn thing, but still.

Also, despite the potentially misleading "F(a)eri(e)" designation, according to their official website (http://www.feritradition.org/), that's an American tradition of witchcraft with no apparent affiliation with the Dynion Mwyn.

WRT the winged ankh symbol, there again, I haven't seen it used by my preferred sources.

I will say this, though: I like the similarities between the names Nimue and Ninmah (of ancient Sumerian fame), as well as any and all winged symbols (please, don't ask why).
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: C_A on February 28, 2014, 02:48:05 AM
The term "corn", even used in the context of your quoted material, represented any cereal crop with a kernel.  Wheat and barley kernels were also referred to as "corn".  New World "maize" is, (and was), a New World crop.

As to Nimue, well, she was many things.  A G-ddess?  No.  People, (especially "auteurs"), come up with stuff sometimes, though, don't they?  I mean, there are those who worship the Virgin Mary, Helen of Troy, Morgan La Fey and even, (this is true...happened back when I facilitated an interfaith discussion group), Pocahontas.  None of the sisters were G-desses.

What happens is, IMNHO, people get all caught up in McWicca and run off the deep end.  Many of them felt very secure during the fast-paced rise of neo-paganism at the tail end of the last century, thinking that no one would notice.  Hey, even Murray and Leland did it...look where it got them.  Who, (over the age of, say, twenty?) feels that J.K. Rowling or $ilver Ravingwoot is an authority?
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Nieske on February 28, 2014, 02:57:13 AM
The term "corn", even used in the context of your quoted material, represented any cereal crop with a kernel.  Wheat and barley kernels were also referred to as "corn".  New World "maize" is, (and was), a New World crop.
Quoted because you were just a few minutes ahead of me. Cereal crops are corn!
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: C_A on February 28, 2014, 03:00:50 AM
I only read through eight pages of google returns.  Don't have my glasses with me.  Google, of course, returns searches differently for everyone, based on their statistic of each person.  Nearly all of the links led to the site you linked to OR the other one that AI mentioned. 

While many of the texts recommended are, indeed, excellent, I'm not sure exactly of some of their core.  I'll look it over further.  I will say this, though...I have never been a big fan of mail order training.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on February 28, 2014, 03:14:44 AM
The term "corn", even used in the context of your quoted material, represented any cereal crop with a kernel.  Wheat and barley kernels were also referred to as "corn".  New World "maize" is, (and was), a New World crop.

Very informative, thank you.

Evans' descriptions of "ears" and "sheaves" in conjunction with "corn" seems a bit misleading, even though all of those terms may apply to other crops.

Still, an association between divinity and "corn" (whatever that meant to the ancients) seems no less plausible.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on February 28, 2014, 03:43:52 AM
...I have never been a big fan of mail order training.

Funny, neither am I, and I've never tried it.

As wonderful as the internet is, I'm fully aware that it's loaded with both misinformation and disinformation; but I've also come across some things over the years that spoke to me on a very deep level to begin with ...and have since withstood the tests of time and scrutiny.

I haven't even scratched the surface of this Dynion Mwyn thing.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Ashe Isadora on February 28, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
So they state they are drawing from Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition as well as Druid lore and various British witchcraft traditions? 
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on March 01, 2014, 11:15:20 AM
So they state they are drawing from Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition as well as Druid lore and various British witchcraft traditions?

The more eclectic "Feri Tradition" that ascribes the maiden aspect of the Goddess to Nimue, yes.

The Welsh Faerie Witchcraft expounded by Rhuddlwm Gawr, Mike Nichols, et al, no.

I'm speculating here, but in light of the quote from Valerie Walker in the OP, plus the following statement (http://www.dynionmwyn.net/dynionmwyn/lesson1/thirteen21.html) in which Rhuddlwn Gawr quotes Maya Stevens, ...

Quote
[. . .]This is what happens with psycho-sexual energy, which permeates the universe.  The energy of opposite genders attract. This is also why we recommend that males work with females. Not because of sexual activity, but because opposites attract psychically as well as physically.

    "We are not getting into homosexuality vs heterosexuality.  I happen to be lesbian, but I find that working with my partner magickally, is not as effective as working with a male.  Many gay people will dispute this statement, but I fear that is because they do not want to think that some things are better done with the sexual polarity of opposite genders."............ Maya Stevens

Which brings us back to the Welsh Faerie Quarters. Male priests call the North and South quarters.  Female priestesses call the East and West Quarters. [...]
[italics added]

...at least one of the grounds for a possible rift between some of the practitioners of these distinct schools of thought is apparent.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Ashe Isadora on March 01, 2014, 01:38:16 PM
Since I'm not of any of those traditions I may not have the real scoop.  As an outsider some things don't add up to me, but I'll wait for some more input.  Keep us posted on your studies, and good fortune.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on March 01, 2014, 07:29:57 PM
...As an outsider some things don't add up to me, ...

Then those are precisely the things I hope you and others will bring up in this thread. You see, I need to be able to argue for the veracity of a thing, in order to buy into it. The debate provides me with direction and focus in my research, and adds an extra dimension in which understanding can take root and blossom. That's just how my mind works.

No pressure, though. The development of my personal understanding is no-one's responsibility but my own.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on March 01, 2014, 08:53:09 PM
All,

If one thing could instantly demolish my interest in this tradition, it would be to discover that it's in any way exclusive on the basis of genealogy. If anyone knows whether or not that's the case, I would greatly appreciate that little tidbit of information.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: C_A on March 03, 2014, 02:53:57 PM
Nothing I have seen, so far, has given me any clue in that regard.  I'm not done looking, but so far, well...

Besides.  How could they?  In just a few millennia...the Celts.  Picts. Aengles.  Normans.  Saxons.  Norse.  Hell's bells...Phoenicians, Egyptians, Atlanteans.

If they were discriminating, (mind you there are such groups), I'd think it would be based on percentages.  Hypothetically speaking, what would stop someone named Hyokuri Abdel-Al M'nguma from joining if his grandmother's name was Mdwyynnddywn Drrmnyymdn?

(No disrespect intended to the Japanese, Arabic, Tutsi or Welsh intended.  Illustratively used, only)
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on March 03, 2014, 03:20:54 PM
Nothing I have seen, so far, has given me any clue in that regard.  I'm not done looking, but so far, well...

Besides.  How could they?  In just a few millennia...the Celts.  Picts. Aengles.  Normans.  Saxons.  Norse.  Hell's bells...Phoenicians, Egyptians, Atlanteans.

If they were discriminating, (mind you there are such groups), I'd think it would be based on percentages.  Hypothetically speaking, what would stop someone named Hyokuri Abdel-Al M'nguma from joining if his grandmother's name was Mdwyynnddywn Drrmnyymdn?

(No disrespect intended to the Japanese, Arabic, Tutsi or Welsh intended.  Illustratively used, only)

I've gotten a similar impression from what I've gathered thus far.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating aspects of one's heritage, but I see little sense in any form of discrimination on the basis of the womb from which one happened to emerge on the day of her or his birth.

In line with your statement, my surname is Welsh (from the rightly-or-wrongly-ascribed-precedent Latin for "dark"). However, my mother's maiden name couldn't be any more Irish, and things get even more complicated closer to the trunk of the family tree.

Even if I could show sufficient or strong enough links in my ancestral chain, as an ardent critic of certain ethnic-based religious thought, I'd be a hypocrite to enter into anything on the basis of those links.

On a completely unrelated note: it seems the rift between the Feris and the Dynion Mwyn goes quite a bit deeper than I initially suspected (I.E. it's not just based on the heterosexuality vs. homosexuality thing).

I won't lend credence to any potentially false allegations by linking to the online discussions in which they were leveled. Neither will I deny the distinct possibility that any or all of them could be true (experience dictates, after all, that where there's smoke ...there's usually fire, at least to some extent).

I will say this: I think William Wheeler has answered his detractors as appropriately as could be expected of anyone accused (wrongly, from his perspective) of such things.

Whatever next?!
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Firesong on March 05, 2014, 10:21:19 PM
From an article at Witch Vox... don't know if it will be helpful but you might check it out.

http://www.dynionmwyn.com/dynionmwyn/dynionmwyn23.html
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Wricker Dreadtemper on March 06, 2014, 09:30:42 AM
Links are funny things, Firesong. Witchvox sources the relevant material to dynionmwyn.com, which is the site I've been using as well, but I hadn't yet come across this:

Quote
[. . .]Of Rhodri’s, sons, only Anarawd followed the old ways and passed the Bardic legacy to his son, Idwal Foel who died in 942 A.D. Before Idwal died, he collected many folios of legends concerning HU Gadarn and the Old Ones. He passed our tradition to his son Meurig.

With Meurig we have the first written mention of Green and Red Dragon Power. Meurig had a son Idwal who retained the tribal knowledge until he invested it in his son Iago, who passed it on to his son Cynan. Before he was killed, legend says that Cynan traveled to the Middle East. He reported that he collected "...many volumes of mystical knowledge..., before he returned.
[...]

The phrase "Green and Red Dragon Power" appeals to me personally, as does one or two other names in that little excerpt.  ;)
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Alchymist on March 06, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
Genealogy: if carried to its entirely logical and mathematical extreme, leads to a surprising - but, if you think about it, rather obvious - conclusion.

Consider: each of us has two biological parents, four grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents ...... and so it goes, doubling with every generation.

Let's be conservative, and say an average generation is about 25 years; so four generations per century. Eight generations, 200 years: 256 ancestors. Twelve generations, 300 years: 4096 ancestors.

So how many generations would it take, do you think, and how many years, for the number of your possible ancestors to exceed the entire population of the planet? A hundred generations, or 2500 years? Two hundred, or 5000 years?

Actually, 28. Only 700 years.

28 generations ago, the number of your possible ancestors was 268,435,456. The population of the whole planet was probably around 200 million.

The fourteenth century. Feudalism still ruled; the majority of the population were peasants and serfs, tied to the land. Bubonic plague - the Black Death. The Hundred Years War. The destruction of the Templars. The beginnings of the witch persecutions in Europe. Not a good time to be living in Europe. But, for those of us of European ancestry, probably everyone living at that time - peasants, artisans, soldiers, outlaws, criminals, merchants, the aristocracy, even royalty - even priests, even monks and nuns - English, Welsh, Scottish, French, Scandinavians, Spanish, Italians - were, if not our direct ancestors, at least related to us in some way.

So if genealogy counts for anything - we're all Welsh, all Vikings, all Picts, all ..... Atlanteans??.....; all Royalty, all Aristocracy, all peasants, adventurers, clerks, alchemists, sheep-stealers, cattle-rustlers, rebels, witches, inquisitors.......

And, perhaps, all of us carry the blood of the Merovingians - and, perhaps, if certain legends are to be believed - the blood of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.....

Alchymist.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Firesong on March 21, 2014, 10:58:28 AM
Genealogy: if carried to its entirely logical and mathematical extreme, leads to a surprising - but, if you think about it, rather obvious - conclusion.

Consider: each of us has two biological parents, four grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents ...... and so it goes, doubling with every generation.

Let's be conservative, and say an average generation is about 25 years; so four generations per century. Eight generations, 200 years: 256 ancestors. Twelve generations, 300 years: 4096 ancestors.

So how many generations would it take, do you think, and how many years, for the number of your possible ancestors to exceed the entire population of the planet? A hundred generations, or 2500 years? Two hundred, or 5000 years?

Actually, 28. Only 700 years.

28 generations ago, the number of your possible ancestors was 268,435,456. The population of the whole planet was probably around 200 million.

The fourteenth century. Feudalism still ruled; the majority of the population were peasants and serfs, tied to the land. Bubonic plague - the Black Death. The Hundred Years War. The destruction of the Templars. The beginnings of the witch persecutions in Europe. Not a good time to be living in Europe. But, for those of us of European ancestry, probably everyone living at that time - peasants, artisans, soldiers, outlaws, criminals, merchants, the aristocracy, even royalty - even priests, even monks and nuns - English, Welsh, Scottish, French, Scandinavians, Spanish, Italians - were, if not our direct ancestors, at least related to us in some way.

So if genealogy counts for anything - we're all Welsh, all Vikings, all Picts, all ..... Atlanteans??.....; all Royalty, all Aristocracy, all peasants, adventurers, clerks, alchemists, sheep-stealers, cattle-rustlers, rebels, witches, inquisitors.......

And, perhaps, all of us carry the blood of the Merovingians - and, perhaps, if certain legends are to be believed - the blood of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.....

Alchymist.

IF we follow that vein back to it's logical beginning, according to some modern anthropologists, we are all Africans...

Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Kuerden Dúghlas on December 05, 2015, 11:25:03 AM
So they state they are drawing from Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition as well as Druid lore and various British witchcraft traditions?

The more eclectic "Feri Tradition" that ascribes the maiden aspect of the Goddess to Nimue, yes.

The Welsh Faerie Witchcraft expounded by Rhuddlwm Gawr, Mike Nichols, et al, no.

I know Mike Nichols; he does not practice so-called "Welsh Faerie." He is a Welsh Traditionalist, yes (with overtones of Wicca), but not Faerie. And he has no connections to the group in question.
Title: Re: The Dynion Mwyn
Post by: Kuerden Dúghlas on December 05, 2015, 01:24:20 PM
The following quote box is from this thread (http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=3900.msg214015#new) in the Introduction forum:

Wricker Dreadtemper, I nosed around a bit, and I have to tell you The Dynion Mwyn Tradition of Witchcraft looks to me like it was made up about 10 minutes ago by a couple of high school kids. Just for starters, they have Nimue as a Corn Queen? Corn is a New World food, not Welsh, and Nimue was a witch not a goddess. That's just one example and it doesn't bode well. [...]

....

However, concerning Nimue's status as Goddess (or an aspect of feminine divinity), I can't speak to your source(s), but  ...
A cursory google search led me to the article, Some Things I Know About Nimue (by Valerie Walker, originally published in Witch Eye Magazine, 2004).

An excerpt:

"Strangely enough, Nimue, the Maiden aspect of the Triple Goddess, doesn't get written about very much by Feris, especially when contrasted with her opposite number (and occasional Twin) the Blue God. ... Another reason might be that the Maiden is closer to the Crone than to the Mother: in the seasonal cycle, the Crone becomes the Maiden in the spring, and in many myths (e.g., that of Kore/Persephone) the Maiden goes to the Underworld to encounter the Crone and become transformed."

....

Also, despite the potentially misleading "F(a)eri(e)" designation, according to their official website (http://www.feritradition.org/), that's an American tradition of witchcraft with no apparent affiliation with the Dynion Mwyn.

There is no single "official" website. Ours, Lilith's Lantern (http://www.lilithslantern.com), is just as "official" and recognized within the community, as we're direct initiates and participated in the Andersons' final coven.

....

As to Nimue, well, she was many things.  A G-ddess?  No.  People, (especially "auteurs"), come up with stuff sometimes, though, don't they?  I mean, there are those who worship the Virgin Mary, Helen of Troy, Morgan La Fey and even, (this is true...happened back when I facilitated an interfaith discussion group), Pocahontas.  None of the sisters were G-desses.

What happens is, IMNHO, people get all caught up in McWicca and run off the deep end.  Many of them felt very secure during the fast-paced rise of neo-paganism at the tail end of the last century, thinking that no one would notice.  Hey, even Murray and Leland did it...look where it got them.  Who, (over the age of, say, twenty?) feels that J.K. Rowling or $ilver Ravingwoot is an authority?

So they state they are drawing from Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition as well as Druid lore and various British witchcraft traditions?

The more eclectic "Feri Tradition" that ascribes the maiden aspect of the Goddess to Nimue, yes.

I should like to point out that Melusine is not a "goddess" but a local water spirit or fairy, yet her name figures prominently in the Goddess litany in The Charge. Anyway, there are goddesses who are also depicted as "witches" in folklore. And what's with pairing Aradia, an Italian goddess from Leland's dubious "gospel," with a Celtic underworld god, Cernunnos? That's not eclectic? When looking for things to ridicule, one can point at a number of different groups. Just sayin'.

[My sources on Melusine include the Melusine (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html) entry at pantheon.org, also Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine).]

Since I'm not of any of those traditions I may not have the real scoop.  As an outsider some things don't add up to me, but I'll wait for some more input.  Keep us posted on your studies, and good fortune.

Nimue is indeed the outer court name used for the Maiden aspect of the Triple Goddess within the Anderson Craft Tradition. (Mari is the outer court name for the Great Mother in Faery.) Victor Anderson was highly inspired and influenced by Robert Graves, from whom he borrowed the outer (i.e., nonsecret) names. But the Andersons' Nimue is not the Nimue of Arthurian legend. Although the name's the same, the lore is unique to Anderson Craft, a living oral tradition. It is not "McWicca."

Victor wrote several poems to the Triple Goddess in his classic book of Pagan poetry, Thorns of the Blood Rose, such as "Song of Mari" (as recorded by Gwydion Pendderwen and Pandaemoneon), "Mari of the Moon," and in the sequel, Lilith's Garden, in "Mother of All Living" and other poems. Space and time do not permit me to excerpt more than a few that mention Nimue:

Whether you come as Nimue,
Slender maiden with the silver bow;
Or Mari, white moon who shines for all,
Illuminating the hearts of men;
Or Anna of the forbidden mysteries,
Whose black majesty, crowned with blue suns,
Reigns supreme in boundless night.

(excerpted from "Prayer for Sexual Purification" by Victor H. Anderson in Thorns of the Blood Rose)

And this one:

I heard an old woman say,
I have been a widow seven years.
My husband was killed while hunting deer
In the time of Mari the silent.
...
But when they told me, I did not weep,
For it was the holy time
Of the all-fruitful Bride and Mother
Whose sign is the full white moon.

Now I bless the young lovers
Who lie panting under the new moon.
Her horns have pricked them between the thighs,
Injecting their blood with honey
In the time of Nimue the Maiden.
...
For it is the holy time
When the Goddess pursues her lover
Whose sign is the morning star.

Now that I am growing old,
I shall not make myself a husband
...
For it is appointed to me
To sit at the council with the elders
To gaze into the dark waters,
In the aweful, holy time
Of Anna the Mother of wisdom
Whose sign is the waning moon.

(excerpted from "The Pictish Priestess" by Victor H. Anderson in Thorns of the Blood Rose)

And:

Like sweet wine and bitter myrrh
On Nimue's altar, blest with prayer,
I poured my boundless love for her
Into the chalice waiting there.

(excerpted from "Love's First Bloom" by Victor H. Anderson in Lilith's Garden)

More info on the Faery Triple Goddess can be found in The Heart of the Initiate by Victor and Cora Anderson, and The Spiral Dance by Starhawk.