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Author Topic: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout  (Read 5159 times)

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Kuerden D˙ghlas

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Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« on: December 11, 2015, 11:41:42 AM »

Could anyone who is either a Trad Wicca or a Trad Witch give a shoutout, please? Just a Hey, I exist! or Hey! is sufficient. I'm just curious how many of us are here. Thanks.
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2015, 12:25:28 PM »

Forgive me KD but, what would constitute a trad Witch? The trad Wicca I can understand but to me the craft is so steeped in history with no real hard and fast rules per se, or formal schooling. Would you mean traditional in the sense that it has been passed on through family?
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015, 12:26:11 PM »

Trad Wiccan here.  Can you tell us more about what you mean when you say "Trad Witch?  That could mean different things among the members.
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Kuerden D˙ghlas

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015, 02:28:57 PM »

By Trad Witch, I mean one who is a member of an established initiatory Witchcraft tradition--initiation is required for full participation--that is not lineaged to Gardner or Sanders, but may be lineaged to someone else (e.g., Robert Cochrane, Joe Wilson, Anderson, Pendderwen, etc.). I'm referring to traditions with a history, lore, and rituals that are uniquely their own.

Some examples of Traditional Witchcraft paths include Clan of Tubal Cain, Roebuck, 1734, Feri/Faery, NECTW (New England Clan of Traditionalist Witches), Hearth of Arianrhod, various cultural traditions (Irish, Welsh, Italian/Siclian), Strega (not the Grimassi sort). And, yes, famtrads, though I've found that most members of genuine famtrads do not join forums and blab.  ::)

Yes, Virginia, there are Traditionalist Witches.  ;D

Michael Howard used the term when referring to "any non-Gardnerian, non-Alexandrian, non-Wiccan or pre-modern form of the Craft, especially if it has been inspired by historical forms of witchcraft and folk magic" (Children of Cain). Daniel A. Schulke of Three Hands Press wrote that traditional witchcraft "refers to a coterie of initiatory lineages of ritual magic, spellcraft and devotional mysticism" ("Way and Waymark," The Cauldron, Nov. '06).

Incidentally, I would include Trad Wiccan in the greater Trad Witchcraft group. I am further suggesting that Trad Wiccan and Trad Witches should not be at odds, but work together to preserve the Traditional Craft, whatever their particular tradition or lineage.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:36:39 PM by Kuerden D˙ghlas »
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2015, 05:07:25 PM »

Thank you KD for the clarification, certainly by the given definition, sadly I would not be a trad Witch. I am and always shall be a solitary, eclectic. I am not comfortable around people, never have been, so working through/within a Coven would not be a suitable choice for me. I am also an agnostic (the good kind), which again would exclude me from being a Covener.

Being Scottish and living here in Scotland, my path follows a Celtic/Norse influence, however I may borrow from any other pantheon if I feel it works for me. I like to experiment and tamper  ;D

I agree that trad Witches and trad Wiccans should not be at odds, I would also extend that to all others too. Here at TCC, we are very proud of the fact that all Pagan paths are welcome and come together here to share, it's a veritable wealth of occult information.

I shall respectfully bow out and allow you to continue with the direction of your thread.
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Canis

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2015, 06:50:35 PM »

Like Drac, I'm not completely comfortable around people and will in all likelihood always be a solitaire. And I also feel drawn to Celtic influences...still trying to figure why that is above other mythologies out there.
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2015, 09:15:35 PM »

By Trad Witch, I mean one who is a member of an established initiatory Witchcraft tradition--initiation is required for full participation--that is not lineaged to Gardner or Sanders, but may be lineaged to someone else (e.g., Robert Cochrane, Joe Wilson, Anderson, Pendderwen, etc.). I'm referring to traditions with a history, lore, and rituals that are uniquely their own.

Some examples of Traditional Witchcraft paths include Clan of Tubal Cain, Roebuck, 1734, Feri/Faery, NECTW (New England Clan of Traditionalist Witches), Hearth of Arianrhod, various cultural traditions (Irish, Welsh, Italian/Siclian), Strega (not the Grimassi sort). And, yes, famtrads, though I've found that most members of genuine famtrads do not join forums and blab.  ::)

Yes, Virginia, there are Traditionalist Witches.  ;D

Michael Howard used the term when referring to "any non-Gardnerian, non-Alexandrian, non-Wiccan or pre-modern form of the Craft, especially if it has been inspired by historical forms of witchcraft and folk magic" (Children of Cain). Daniel A. Schulke of Three Hands Press wrote that traditional witchcraft "refers to a coterie of initiatory lineages of ritual magic, spellcraft and devotional mysticism" ("Way and Waymark," The Cauldron, Nov. '06).

Incidentally, I would include Trad Wiccan in the greater Trad Witchcraft group. I am further suggesting that Trad Wiccan and Trad Witches should not be at odds, but work together to preserve the Traditional Craft, whatever their particular tradition or lineage.
So you'd consider initiatory traditions that are standing the test of time, and maybe loosely based on Wicca, as Traditionalist Witches ? Or not? NROOGD comes to mind as well as Dianic Witchcraft and the Reclaiming Tradition among others. Or do you mean traditions whose origins are closer to New Forest and thereabouts?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 10:09:16 AM by Ashe Isadora »
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oldghost

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2015, 10:15:33 PM »

Define what you believe to be Traditional , are you not just going back to the 1930's . Can't see that as traditional . Since there are no collections of written material , no library of old BOS I done see how you can call anything traditional that was basically make by person would are just doing what they believe it should be ?.

We know there were Witches in the old days but what knowledge is there to prove that they had covens ?. Most things written about those times were by people that hated Witches and as we know the winner writes the history .
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 11:28:08 PM »

Og, tradition usually means there's orthopraxy and shared belief that has been passed down, usually through 3 or more "generations " of initiators/initiates.  A tradition need not go back for hundreds of years, though the roots of many traditions go back to antiquity.

The collections of written material used by present day witches come from many sources including folklore, fairy tales, grimoires of ceremonial magicians, oral tradition, and much more.

"Tradition" in this context does not have to mean ancient or even centuries old, It just means a set way of doing things that is being passed down and it usually includes oathbound information and unique religious mysteries shared by initiates.
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Alchymist

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 01:13:37 AM »

"Tradition" in this context does not have to mean ancient or even centuries old, It just means a set way of doing things that is being passed down and it usually includes oathbound information and unique religious mysteries shared by initiates.

That would certainly exclude the Reclaiming tradition then, as in Reclaiming there is no set Liturgy - no "orthopraxy" - and no formal initiation rituals, although in a very real sense the Reclaiming Witch Camps constitute a week-long Initiation. Certainly, you're a very different person at the end of one, which is what any true "initiation" really sets out to do. The essence of Reclaiming is creativity; while maintaining a given basic structure (casting the circle, calling the quarters, raising the Cone of Power etc.) rewriting older rituals, and even inventing new ones, often borrowing elements from traditions from outside of Europe, is strongly encouraged. In this it is perhaps more akin to Chaos Magic.

As with any magical ritual, simply reading a description won't do you much good - you have to experience it. Creating new and revised rituals has its drawbacks - occasionally the ritual simply falls flat on its face - but often enough, apotheosis takes over and the whole thing takes fire, swirling with uncanny power and energy - the words to fully express the experience simply don't exist - in a way that no mere orthopraxy can ever do. The spine tingles, the hair stands on end, the Gods and Goddesses are present, and real Magic is afoot. I've worked with both systems, so I speak from experience.

It's essential, I would say, that witchcraft holds onto its wildness, its poetry and passion, its power of transgression and transformation, and not simply become just another mainstream religion, tamed and clawless. Only thus is the world changed.

Blessed Be everyone,

Alchymist.   
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 01:22:09 AM »

Point well taken, Alchy.  I'm still thinking....

Our homegrown American traditions sometimes fall into their own unique categories.  I'd welcome more input from Kuerden at this point.
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Kuerden D˙ghlas

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2015, 09:57:00 AM »

Ashe Isadora, you've already provided a very succinct definition of "tradition." Thank you. As Alchy said, no, Reclaiming would not fit the category.

Alchy, however much creativity one perceives in Reclaiming, the fact remains that it was built upon a prior existing traditionalist path--primarily Faery Tradition (but also BTW, Golden Dawn and other material)--however, initiation is not required to join Reclaiming. Therefore Reclaiming is not traditionalist even though it was built upon traditionalist (Faery) mysteries and beliefs (including wildness and creativity!). Tradition and creativity are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Ashe Isadora, no, traditionalists do not necessarily only come from the New Forest or thereabouts. (Neither Faery nor Reclaiming are from that area.) For example, as its name implies, NECTW is from New England. The Anderson Craft is a particularly American tradition, with roots in Oregon, the Appalachians and Ozarks, New Mexico, and further back to Scotland, Ireland and ultimately, to Africa.

As noted by Feri and Gardnerian priestess Anna Korn, it is hard to find any tradition these days that has not adopted some BTW praxis, even famtrads. But traditionalist does not necessarily have to be, although it may be, loosely based on Wicca. The Anderson Craft has its own praxis and actually borrows very little from BTW, except in the more public (online) version.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 10:09:10 AM by Kuerden D˙ghlas »
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 12:43:24 PM »

 Alchy brought up a very good point about the wildness.  And some would say the outlaw vibe that Craft carries.  I've thought myself that recent interpretations of Wicca (meaning Neowicca) are too sanitized and somehow safe. Something ineffable has been lost.  Do some pagans have the impression that traditions are seen as too prefab and/or "safe"?
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oldghost

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 11:56:34 PM »

Ashe , of course things now a days are nice think on part of your saying " As It Harms None Do As You Will " now that just neo stuff isn't it . Do you think a Witch of two hundred years ago real gave a damn if someone got hurt by what they did if it interfered with what they needed to do . An is not your Wiccan beliefs founded from just the around the middle of the last century . Do you really think that the Witches of the old days got around to weekly get together for tea and spell sharing . Where not most of them solitary's ?.
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: Trad Witch or Trad Wiccan Shoutout
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2016, 12:13:14 AM »

Ashe , of course things now a days are nice think on part of your saying " As It Harms None Do As You Will " now that just neo stuff isn't it . Do you think a Witch of two hundred years ago real gave a damn if someone got hurt by what they did if it interfered with what they needed to do . An is not your Wiccan beliefs founded from just the around the middle of the last century . Do you really think that the Witches of the old days got around to weekly get together for tea and spell sharing . Where not most of them solitary's ?.
Sure most of them were solitary.  And I agree with much of what you said, but the Rede doesn't tell us to never, ever harm anyone.  The notion that the Rede demands that of us is more New Age than Wiccan.

And yes, Wicca was founded around the mid 20th century but it draws from sources that are much, much older. Just sayin'.

And btw, no one is putting Solitaries down. Solitaries have the arduous task of piecing together a cohesive practice and are usually self taught (though not always).  Solitaries and Eclectics in some ways have a harder path than Traddies do, if they are sincere and conscientious.
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