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Author Topic: The Ardanes  (Read 19020 times)

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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2009, 02:49:39 PM »

F.W. wrote:

I have also said that one likely cannot follow traditional Wicca as put forth by Gardner, i.e. Gardnerian Wicca as a solitaire, but if one maintains the balance of the dogma, beliefs and ritual practice, as closely as possible, one is a practitioner of solitary Wicca, which admittedly is not the same as traditional Wicca, but is still Wicca nonetheless.

Carysta responded:

I think FW pretty much summed it up. 

Blue:

Not to belabor the point but i'm not so sure about that.

I've been trying to get something across that might make all of the difference in the world but if it's outside of someones range of experience they don't have a point of reference and will not be able to identify with what you're saying.

About all that anyone can do in that situation is point and say go experience this for yourself so that you can understand.

Of course one with no point of reference isn't going to decide one day to become a solitary Wiccan and automatically know what I'm talking about.  It's not something one learns in the bat of an eye or even something that can be explained.  For me a came with a good deal of time and practice.  Some who set out on a solitary path may never in this incarnation become ready to learn that of which I speak without joining a lineaged coven.  What I have learned is the result of a great deal of research, study, practice, and meditation.  There are those that are simply not that ambitious or receptive to that which they seek.
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Blackmoons Owl

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2009, 06:18:05 PM »

In my googling, I found a whole bunch of 'versions' of The Charge of the Goddess.  I remembered that Doreen Valiente rewrote the original Leviter Veslis (by Gardner, a prose version) so I quoted from hers; there were all kinds of others that were more-or-less the same but with some changes.  I found a site comparing some of the versions here:  http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/wicca/charge.htm that gave a little history as well.  For example I found a version by Starhawk that takes out references to "man", and one by Silver Ravenwolf that bears nearly no resemblance at all to the original charge (the line we just discussed for example is entirely absent in any form).  Anyway my question now is simply, s the Valiente version the one most commonly cited, or does it vary by tradition? 
It can vary by tradition and often the argument is started over who's version is ther correct one.  ;)
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Blackmoons Owl

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2009, 06:33:42 PM »

Getting back to the Ardanes, Rules 6 and 7 talk about properly purifying both the circle and the self.  .... but what are some of the 'preferred' methods of purifying self and space?  Are there specific incense types that are better?  Is the act of picturing physically sweeping away bad energy more helpful than cleansing with incense? 
I tend to go with a purification bath (though a shower can work too - as can using a lake, river, ocean or even standing out in a rain shower.  One might also smudge themselves, annoint with oils, fast or avoid eating certain foods to cleanse their system as part of cleansing oneself.

Cleansing a space can involve the besom to sweep energies, smudging (with sage, white sage, sweetgrass or incense), burning incense, sprinking purified water or salt water, sprinking sand or salt, use of music, sprinkling oils, etc.  It varies by practice, tradition, preference and the space you are working in.  You might not want sprinkle water on a hard wood floor or dump salt/sand on your carpet.  Its possible the site you choose does not allow smoke or open flames.  You could find smoke too acrid or if one has allergies, it might be too irritating to use.  All are considerations in preparing your space.  Its also possible you decide to do a ritual and may not have certain items readily available.  (This has happened to me a few times while traveling.)

In a Coven setting, we do plan in advance for what is needed & allowed at our ritual site.  There are times when members are asked to cleanse &  prepare before the ritual and other's where it as a part of the entire ritual.  This is especially true during an initiation. 
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"Shapes & forms, against the norms, against the run of the mill, swimming against the stream, life in two dimensions is a mass production scheme."  Rush

Blackmoons Owl

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2009, 06:36:05 PM »

If you are preparing the space for a group working you really have to consider safety. BMO wrote a wonderful post on the subject awhile back.  Also ... people were participating Au Natural. You have to think about their comfort.
Dangit Blue - now I have to try to remember which lost post this was.  :P
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"Shapes & forms, against the norms, against the run of the mill, swimming against the stream, life in two dimensions is a mass production scheme."  Rush

blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2009, 06:38:26 PM »

Of course one with no point of reference isn't going to decide one day to become a solitary Wiccan and automatically know what I'm talking about.  It's not something one learns in the bat of an eye or even something that can be explained.  For me a came with a good deal of time and practice.  Some who set out on a solitary path may never in this incarnation become ready to learn that of which I speak without joining a lineaged coven.  What I have learned is the result of a great deal of research, study, practice, and meditation.  There are those that are simply not that ambitious or receptive to that which they seek.

Yes, but for all of your experience and learning you are missing out on the coven ( group ) experience and everything it has to offer. That's something you can't get from occasionally attending a group ritual.

I'm on thin ice here but it seems to me that if a coven were well run it would hold together for years , maybe even generations. Given time ... there is a very deep spiritual connection and bond of love & trust that can develop within the coven.

 As a solitary that's something that you may never know.

 To use a rather poor analogy how would you explain the experience of " The Little Death " to someone that has never experienced it ? Honestly ... i don't think you could.  They have no point of refrence ? Would they ever really know what they're missing ?

 Yes, no, maybe ?

 
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2009, 06:40:42 PM »

Dangit Blue - now I have to try to remember which lost post this was.  :P

 Gee ... if you could find it .. it would be so worth reposting.  :)

 I think it was in the first ritual experience thread at the old board ?

 
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2009, 07:00:26 PM »

Yes, but for all of your experience and learning you are missing out on the coven ( group ) experience and everything it has to offer. That's something you can't get from occasionally attending a group ritual.

I'm on thin ice here but it seems to me that if a coven were well run it would hold together for years , maybe even generations. Given time ... there is a very deep spiritual connection and bond of love & trust that can develop within the coven.

 As a solitary that's something that you may never know.

 To use a rather poor analogy how would you explain the experience of " The Little Death " to someone that has never experienced it ? Honestly ... i don't think you could.  They have no point of refrence ? Would they ever really know what they're missing ?

 Yes, no, maybe ?

As I agreed earlier ITT that those who have never been in a coven would likely not have shared a coven experience.

I've also demonstrated why this does not disqualify them from being Wiccan.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:03:09 PM by FireWillow »
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thehallwayceiling

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2009, 07:58:40 PM »


http://wicca.timerift.net/laws/161.shtml


Slightly off topic, but I have come to love this site. And Ms. Beyer's Alternative Religion blog on About.com. I believe it was FW that provided a link to the site a while back (I can't remember which thread), and I have been following it since. I didn't even know Zoroastrians and those of the Baha'i faith existed before I started reading her writings. So, thank you FW.
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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2009, 08:12:29 PM »

Here? http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=89.msg1399#msg1399

I've linked to her blog (I think it was the thread about mending the rift between Satanism and Wicca) as well.

...and your welcome.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2009, 04:51:45 AM »


 This is interesting ....

A quote of the first ten laws taken as a whole.

1: The Law was made and ordained of old.
2: The Law was made for the Wicca, to advise and help in their troubles.
3: The Wicca should give due worship to the gods and obey their will, which they ordain, for it was made for the good of Wicca as the worship of the Wicca is good for the gods. For the gods love the brethren of Wicca.
4: As a man loveth a woman by mastering her,
5: So should the Wicca love the gods by being mastered by them.
6: And it is necessary that the Circle which is the temple of the gods, should be truly cast and purified. And that it may be a fit place for the gods to enter.
7: And the Wicca shall be properly prepared and purified to enter into the presence of the gods.
8: With love and worship in their hearts, they shall raise power from their bodies to give power to the gods.
9: As has been taught of old.
10: For in this way only may men have communion with the gods, for the gods cannot help man without the help of man.


 Taken in total ... it would seem to suggest that only through a man may a woman know the gods ?

 That would seem to be in keeping with some of the earlier influences that shaped the formation of Wicca.

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FireWillow

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2009, 05:20:48 AM »

Taken in total ... it would seem to suggest that only through a man may a woman know the gods ?

I don't see that interpretation.  How are you coming to that conclusion?

Line four, the way I see it, refers to "a man," meaning male.  Line ten, on the other hand, refers to "men" and "man" which I interpret to mean mankind, i.e. 'woman and man.'

In order for me to interpret this to your assertion, line ten would have to read something like "For in this way only may men have communion with the gods, for the gods cannot help women without the help of a man."
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Carysta

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2009, 05:38:45 AM »

Oooh!  Semantics again.  :)  And I haven't even had my coffee yet.  OK, I'll bite. 

Quote from: The Ardanes
And the High Priestess shall rule her coven as the representative of the Goddess.
And the High Priest shall support her as the representative of the God.
And the High Priestess shall choose whom she will, be he of sufficient rank, to be her High Priest.
For, as the God Himself kissed Her feet in the five-fold salute, laying His power at the feet of the Goddess because of Her youth and beauty, Her sweetness and kindness, Her wisdom and justice, Her humility and generosity,
So He resigned all His power to Her.
But the High Priestess should ever mind that the power comes from Him.
It is only lent, to be used wisely and justly.

While the first 10 lines I believe speak in general of Man(kind) (both genders), if you go on just a bit further, it shows the balance between High Priestess and High Priest that is necessary in a coven.  While the woman needs her High Priest, so could the High Priest not exist without his High Priestess,  who are both representing the God and Godess for the coven.  At least, that's how I interpret this next part.  Simplistic right now yes.  Anyway, I'm starting to see that taking the Ardanes in bits and parts can be good for discussion and learning, but also bad because some parts heavily influence the other parts. 

I think perhaps in our time we've become so used to seeing 'humankind' or 'mankind' instead of just 'man' to represent the race of men (both genders), that it can definitely skew our perception.  Look at my first reaction to the 'mastery' issue - things are not always what they seem :)
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theosophia

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2009, 11:40:44 AM »

If you DO put a "gender" spin on the thing, I think you actually might get the opposite interpretation from what you're thinking:


 10: For in this way only ...

      ... may men have communion with the gods, for the gods cannot help man without the help of man. [/i]

... would seem to indicate that "men" have only this one way of communing with the gods, while "women" might have other ways.
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blue

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2009, 03:21:22 PM »

If you DO put a "gender" spin on the thing, I think you actually might get the opposite interpretation from what you're thinking:

... would seem to indicate that "men" have only this one way of communing with the gods, while "women" might have other ways.


 Think about it Theo. You know well ... perhaps better than anyone on this board ... the influences that shaped the formation of Wicca.

 ( if you don't nitpick ) It can generally be said the the traditions which led up to Wicca were male dominated. Consider the Catholic church for instance .... Males hold the primary leadership roles while females hold support roles. Same thing could be said of the Hebrew tradition and a host of others.

 Now ... on the surface the message is " Only through a man can a woman know god "

 Let's look at this on a deeper level.  ;)

 The first twenty lines clearly establish a chain of command !  AHA ! It's a man's way of doing religion.

 At the head of the chain are the Gods.
 
 Second in command is the H.P.

 Third in line is the HPS who is to be humble and ever mindful the her power is only lent to her by the HP.
-----------------------------------

 ( See if you can make the jump )

I believe C_A expressed concern that Wicca was going down the tubes. He was quite right. In it's present McWicca form it cannot endure because it's become too feminized.

 See ... women are fluid and dynamic. Constantly in a state of change. Done a woman's way the coven morphs in and out of existence in a relatively short amount of time.

 Now ... done a man's way the church of Wicca could endure for centuries ... perhaps even longer. If there's any doubt about this consider the long enduring religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

 Male based system !

 Now traditional male based Wicca does differ from the others because there is indeed balance because the extremes of masculine and feminine meet in the middle within the coven.

 Discard the masculine element, as many have done these days, and all you have is imbalance, disharmony, and impermanence ?

 Yes, No, Maybe.

( consider it carefully )
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theosophia

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Re: The Ardanes
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2009, 05:04:40 PM »

Think about it Theo. You know well ... perhaps better than anyone on this board ... the influences that shaped the formation of Wicca.

Actually, I'm not much of an expert on Wicca -- it's beginnings or anything else.  I've not even read very much by or about Gardner.  I just recognize certain esoteric principles that I see in some of the literature and I recognize a little bit of where they may have come from in other religions and organizations.  Everything else I've posted in this thread is just from intuition based on that.

(BTW:  I happen to come from a background of a "religion" (or an organization anyway) which was founded by woman (actually several organizations, all of which were primarilly founded by women.)  But I don't think that skews my perspective very much.  Blavatsky was not exactly a very feminine character.)



And ... um -- most of what you say about male-dominated religions is, of course, correct on a generic level.  I was just pointing out that the grammar doesn't fit that conclusion in that particular sentence.

Now ... on the surface the message is "Only through a man can a woman know god "

But the sentence is:

     "For in this way only may men have communion with the gods..."


According to the rules of grammar and logic, if there is a gender meaning to that sentence, it is to say that only through a woman (or, rather, through the relationships between men and women and the gods, as well as the precepts for "raising power" outlined in the previous several sentences) can a man "have communion with the gods."  

The sentence places no limitation upon women.  Only upon men.  (IF there is a gender meaning to it -- which I personally believe there is not because it looks to me like it is refering to the entire process and "men" as a generic type of being rather than a particular gender.)

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