Welcome, Guest
December 10, 2018, 10:30:50 PM
News: Visit our Store for Pagan Books, Wiccan Jewelry and Magical Supplies! http://wicca.com/stores/entrance.html
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Christopagans  (Read 10009 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dark magus

  • Member
  • Apple
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3147
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 09:09:55 PM »

Jesus and Mary....is there any proof they actually existed?
The story about a virgin giving birth to the son of a God may be attributed to them, but it is also told about Isis and Horus, several thousands of years earlier. And for that matter every miracle attributed to Jesus was done by Horus.

In my view, the gods were all created by man when he needed someone to blame for his bad fortune or when something happened that could not be explained. Do gods exist? When was the last time you walked into a room, slapped palms with GOD and sat down for a real face to face. Not some sort of visualization or third eye experience....I mean flesh meeting "flesh"?
If you say never, then what makes you think you ever had a relationship with GOD. Was it all in your head, wishful thinking, over active imagination? Don't tell me that you have faith in the voices in your head or the beauty of nature around you. I'm talking about meeting your god, a physical experience.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm asking a real question.
Logged

aedh

  • Member
  • Hawthorn
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1294
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 10:19:58 PM »

Thou art god.
Logged

Lena

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 942
  • Persistence is too close to Obsession...
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 01:36:50 AM »

Jesus and Mary....is there any proof they actually existed?
The story about a virgin giving birth to the son of a God may be attributed to them, but it is also told about Isis and Horus, several thousands of years earlier. And for that matter every miracle attributed to Jesus was done by Horus.

In my view, the gods were all created by man when he needed someone to blame for his bad fortune or when something happened that could not be explained. Do gods exist? When was the last time you walked into a room, slapped palms with GOD and sat down for a real face to face. Not some sort of visualization or third eye experience....I mean flesh meeting "flesh"?
If you say never, then what makes you think you ever had a relationship with GOD. Was it all in your head, wishful thinking, over active imagination? Don't tell me that you have faith in the voices in your head or the beauty of nature around you. I'm talking about meeting your god, a physical experience.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm asking a real question.

IMO:
Actually they did existed, as persons that is. The Apostles have left some texts behind in where they document their presence and there are allways the excavation findings (though ownership of whom is being questioned).. They question lays on their Divine origin I guess. On the other hand, I can't remember in any of the ancient Greek texts actually being verified a mortals' (writer/author) face to face confrontation with any of the 12 Gods... I think that is why they are called mythological Gods and Goddesses..
Personally I don't believe in History itself. I don't think of History being a science apart from dates. Maybe less questionable is Archeology and that when it comes to dates (C14 method and so on). I mean.. spending all that effort, souls, resources on an unfaithful wife if Menelaus'' ? The Trojan war took actually place for a woman?? (Because that is what is written)
Or the Crusades took place for the Holy Goblet? Even modern wars are questioned by their causes/motivations..

The Saints in Greek Orthodox religion have been approved (for calling and celebrating them as Saints or Holy) by the Synods. Some are believed to answer in prayers by a rather miraculous way (at least in Greece).. So.. if making assumptions on the results that you get out of 'true and full faith' on a religion, isn't actual the solidness of ones believes that makes a religion valid/true/accurate/* ? What is the 'worth' of a religion that does not have 'true' followers?
I think that there is an American expression that I used to find very smart about the 'religion of Money'.. Which I believe to be the most popular religion ever.. overruling all known religions, conveyed and veiled by most of them..

Can someone say that he/she is a true believer? That follows the 'Codes' as written (when written) each and every day no matter what?
I happen to agree with curiocity on
Gods are beyond human comprehension, in their totality. I don't believe that what they stand for or teach can be invalidated by someone not buying into all the bells and whistles of a particular religious structure.

I believe that religions are codes made by humans through their beliefs in right and wrong, some filtered by the Status of each culture, some even altered to keep the masses handy.. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it in the Dark Ages when Christianity was 'enriched' by the 'punishment' profile? Wasn't it then when Paganism was initially been prosecuted? Wasn't then when the Church elaborated it's theories in Hell?

Dunno.. I feel that in almost every religion that I come to know some about, so far, there is more 'Human' in it rather than 'Divine'. Still searching though..
I choose to see it under a philosophical prism rather than 'facts' or "texts' interpretation" due to their disputed essence..
Logged
"All people hide various of charachters within.. The question is how to summon one and avoid another." - Dr.Emil Kraepelin

soulfire

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 952
  • telestic witch
    • Believe in You!
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 09:26:43 AM »

thank you zenarchist.

It was not uncommon for a follower of gnosis to take on the name of his god beit horus, christ, krishna, mithras, etc.  Jesus and Mary may very well have lived and just like pythagoras, taken on the miracles attributed on the path of gnosis. 

One must look deeper than literal Christianity to mix oil and water.
Logged
Striving for authenticity- which is not often politically correct. Get over it.

I RESPECT YOUR INDIVIDUALITY AND OPINIONS, PLEASE RESPECT MINE cuz i'll say it.

NyteShaed

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 07:59:09 PM »

Looks like that holy oil has two parts myrrh, two parts cassia, one part cinnamon and one part either fragrant cane or calamus, depending on who you ask.  I can certainly see something with that much cinnamon and cassia being thought of as a baptism by fire.

According to some pages fragrant cane refers to cannabis, I'm guessing this is the mistranslated part, since it is rendered differently in different books.The amount given (totalling about 75 pounds of herbs) would be really hard to fit into the gallon (roughly) of olive oil that is suggested, so no wonder it was only made for the holiest of holies.
Logged

NyteShaed

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2010, 01:45:50 PM »

Protip: 6 pounds (500 shekels or 2.83 kg) of Calamus rendered into an extract will kill your liver, even if applied topically. The main active substance (asarone, or in the 'eur-asian calamus' asarone-B) is said to be converted/metabolized by the liver into an Ecstasy equivalent. Also asarone-B is known to cause liver cancer in mice (North American Calamus does not contain acerone-B or only contains trace amounts, but the variety found in the middle east has asarone-B as it's main chemical constituent). The main clinical symptom of asarone overdose is prolonged vomiting that sometimes lasts more than 15 hours. Also, the chemicals in Calamus are 'alcohol solvent', while the chemicals in Hemp are 'oil solvent'.

++Edit: the reference to "like a skilled incence maker/perfumer, blend these ingredients into an anointing oil" means to boil the ingredients with twice as much water as olive oil in order to render the herbs down to their essential oils. This makes no sense for a alcohol solvent chemical. Also, I do not advocate breaking any local jurisdictional laws.++

If I were of a mind to anoint myself as Christ I think 12 lbs of cassia would be a bit prohibitively expensive, never mind 6 lbs of cannabis.
Logged

Keysol

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 895
  • "Words without thoughts never to heaven go"
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 04:33:43 PM »

I have a tendency to view Christianity like Wicca. There are so many offshoots, spinoffs, beliefs, and bastardizations of the original concept, it's almost impossible to say what it really is any more.

Christianity is a religion though...it does have a core dogma. The only core dogma that Paganism has, IMO, is that it is NOT a Christian, Islam, or Jewish belief system.

Based on this opinion, I don't see how a person could be a blend of Christopagan. Perhaps some sort of Neo-Christian, yes. Christianity has so many spin offs by now though, *shrugs* I am sure someone has created a Christopagan sect and it have been validated simply by the creation and the induction of the first member.

Could a person be a Christian witch? Of course...because it all depends on the definition of what a witch really is. In some terminology, a witch is simply a midwife or herbalist. Being a witch does not have to define a belief system...it could simply be a label (however a poor one) for a learned skill or practice. Since there doesn't seem to be anything within the core dogma of Christianity against this sort of skill or practice, I don't see why a person who is not involved in a more loosly interpreted Christian belief system could not also be a witch.

But then, I know of Witches that have created a very firm belief system around their magical practice. IMO, this was the original intent of the creation of Wicca, to align a recognized religion with a magical practice. Over the years, through years of bastardization and the desire to mainstream Wicca, the magical practice has become a 'choice' and not an intergrated part of the religion.
Logged
"We are what our thoughts have made us; so take care about what you think. Words are secondary. Thoughts live; they travel far." Swami Vivekananda

adamlee

  • Guest
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2010, 06:40:38 AM »

Indeed there is history.

And one need only read the Bible from an allegorical standpoint to realize that there are some aspects of it which are, simply put, not meant to be taken literally.

Yes, there are passages in the Bible which specifically prohibit certain actions, such as divination, sorcery, and killing.

"Thou shalt not kill."

I'd like to see some sort of reconciliation between this statement and the Crusades.

I suppose that, so long as you can reconcile the two in your own mind/path, then it's just as valid as anything else.  I haven't really looked much into Christo-paganism (though I did buy a book on it, I'll look through it later), but from what I understand (having spoken with a Christo-pagan) the two can be reconciled.  It's apparently a matter of outlook and understanding of the two paths.

The first four of the ten commandments are directly at odds with paganism. In fact, that's why they were written that way. Especially about idols. But even the catholics have idols, seriously. Even such things like pentagrams and crosses worn on the neck are technically idols.

As for thou shalt not kill, that's actually a mistranslation. They meant "thou shalt not murder", or "It's only OK to kill if theres a good reason". Look at all the killing that the jews, and infact, God himself did during the old testament. Clearly it was OK to kill for certain reasons. Deuteronomy even tells when to stone your children to death, or when to stone your whole family to death.
Logged

adamlee

  • Guest
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2010, 06:42:38 AM »

Jesus and Mary....is there any proof they actually existed?
The story about a virgin giving birth to the son of a God may be attributed to them, but it is also told about Isis and Horus, several thousands of years earlier. And for that matter every miracle attributed to Jesus was done by Horus.

In my view, the gods were all created by man when he needed someone to blame for his bad fortune or when something happened that could not be explained. Do gods exist? When was the last time you walked into a room, slapped palms with GOD and sat down for a real face to face. Not some sort of visualization or third eye experience....I mean flesh meeting "flesh"?
If you say never, then what makes you think you ever had a relationship with GOD. Was it all in your head, wishful thinking, over active imagination? Don't tell me that you have faith in the voices in your head or the beauty of nature around you. I'm talking about meeting your god, a physical experience.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm asking a real question.

Honestly I agree. I'm an atheist.
Logged

Doktor Howl

  • Hazel
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1850
  • The Juden of Paganism.
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2010, 12:43:12 PM »

Although there is quite a bit of debate on this subject here as well, I personally am of the school of 'if it works for you'.  There is a lot of beautiful ritual and symbolism in Christianity.  Ceremonial magic uses angels.  There is even male female duality (holy ghost and Mary are both female supposedly).  And anyone who thinks Mary isn't worshipped as a godform should take a look at some of the South American practices surrounding her.

Who needs to go that far?  Here in Tucson, they sacrifice electronics to her.
Logged
WRONG SIDE OF THE TRACKS CREW

NyteShaed

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 12:44:52 AM »

That isn't how they see her. Mary is seen as an intercessor, someone who, in her infinite compassion, will intercede with God and Jesus in your favor. I realize this is difficult for those who have never been Catholic (I am, as I think I mentioned, an ex-Catholic). You have to understand the purpose of saints. They're seen sort of like older, favored siblings who will help you out because they're cool like that.

"Idols" as adamlee uses the term to discuss statues and crosses is also incorrect. If you look at it like a Catholic does, a statue is part reminder (why you find them in gardens and such) and part focus, I suppose you could say. Catholicism is paganism Christianized, let's be honest (even my rabidly Catholic mother agrees), and it realized somewhere along the way (indirectly, at best) that people like to have something to focus their prayers on. They aren't praying TO the statue. The statue is not, in fact, the presence of a saint or Jesus; it's merely a tangible focus for prayer. You can also see this in Greek Orthodox history. Iconoclasts found that people were willing to die to protect their icons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Voodoo#Voodoo_Queens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodoo_%28folk_magic%29
^ arguably two forms of Christian witchery

Just because Catholics don't worship Mary as a godform doesn't mean nobody does.

Catholics get hung up on the idols, nobody thinks they are praying to the statues, pagans don't pray to statues either, that would be stupid.  If they are praying to what the statue represents though, Mary or another saint, they are treating that person as a godform.
Logged

glitterwings

  • Member
  • Fir
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 02:02:09 PM »

Christopaganism is actually a path I am researching (though I am nowhere near coming to any conclusions) but the general consensus I have heard from my pagan friends is, "hey, whatever works for you!" So I think it's really up to each and every single person to figure out where their religious beliefs fall.
Logged

soulfire

  • Member
  • Ash
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 952
  • telestic witch
    • Believe in You!
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 09:15:19 AM »

One who researches the origins and history of Christianity honestly, noticing the similarities in certain beliefs/paganism from a gnostic perspective, eventually finds a redundancy in the word 'christopagan'.
But if your purpose is to use Jesus and Mary as the god/dess and keep them seperate deities to revere then it works.  Each to his own path and comfort.
Logged
Striving for authenticity- which is not often politically correct. Get over it.

I RESPECT YOUR INDIVIDUALITY AND OPINIONS, PLEASE RESPECT MINE cuz i'll say it.

LeeLew1969

  • Member
  • Pine
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 10:29:39 AM »

It is so weird, this discussion. I am looking into everything - to see what I really can take as a truth or believe in that makes me feel comfortable. But in my growing up "christian" anything having anything to do with a witch at all is against the teachings of the church. I have been to baptist, pentecostal (sp), and most recently Jehovahs Witness meetings and none of those would ever even think of allowing someone to practice witchcraft. Ever. But what puzzles me, is all the different opinions here. I like it, but it confuses me. Seeing Jesus and Mary as a god and goddess? Are they supposed to be a form of a different god or goddess? I am sorry if I sound uneducated, but quite frankly, I am. =0)
Logged

Firesong

  • Council Elder
  • Walnut
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4448
  • Laughin' at the Angels, laughin' at you;
Re: Christopagans
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 02:11:18 PM »

It is so weird, this discussion. I am looking into everything - to see what I really can take as a truth or believe in that makes me feel comfortable. But in my growing up "christian" anything having anything to do with a witch at all is against the teachings of the church. I have been to baptist, pentecostal (sp), and most recently Jehovahs Witness meetings and none of those would ever even think of allowing someone to practice witchcraft. Ever. But what puzzles me, is all the different opinions here. I like it, but it confuses me. Seeing Jesus and Mary as a god and goddess? Are they supposed to be a form of a different god or goddess? I am sorry if I sound uneducated, but quite frankly, I am. =0)

You're not uneducated;  The problem is the scope, not the quality of education.  In the book of Numbers, there is a spell used to determine if a woman is guilty of adultery; it's similar to spells used by Coptic Christians(one of the earliest Christian churches in Egypt), and Jews of that time frame.

To understand Jesus the Christ, you must first understand Jesus the man, and to understand Jesus the man, you must first understand Jesus the Jew.  *wink*
Logged
"Every thug deserves a slug..."
~Anonymous
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up