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Author Topic: Discordianism's Role in Paganism  (Read 25438 times)

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blessed of coyote

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #180 on: January 21, 2011, 12:27:50 PM »

Which is fine for Discordians.  But don't expect non-Discordians to adhere to the same standard.
Which is Coyote added "in the context of Discordianism"
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Moss

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #181 on: January 21, 2011, 02:41:04 PM »

Theoretically, if you keep shaking it, there is a chance that all those grains of sand will fall, with all the white sand on the bottom, and the red sand on top. It's not very big chance, but it does exist. So if you want a more up to date model, than Newton's, this must be taken into account.

Because, in a Universe that is basically a Chaotic system, encompassing a few ordered and quantifiable elements, every dynamic available must be taken into account in order to get the most accurate view. You can't just omit a possibility because it doesn't fit the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. A truly empirical mind, will try to improve the Law of Thermodynamics, rather than to pretend the Universe is something less than it is.
Either way, we are never going to see the sand fall in those layers again.
But to categorically state that it is impossible, that it can never happen, is wrong. Because according to the Laws of Probability, it is a possibility. And this means that it not only could happen, but at some point, it will happen.    

In theory, yes. But only in theory. What I gave was a real world example, I might have better said "always (within the lifetime of the universe)" and "never (within the lifetime of the universe)".

Wolfram Alpha tells us that there are 52,700 grains of sand in a litre.

With some room to shake in a 1L bottle, say that's 20,000 red grains and 20,000 white grains.

The number of permutations is 40,000! for the entire bottle. Of those permutations 20,000!2 are perfectly separated. Using Wolfram Alpha again to divide those numbers tells us the odds of getting a perfectly separated result after shaking randomly is 1 in 6.320245 ? 1012038.

Now, because you seem to be in a nitpicking mood :) I'll pre-empt your protest that perfect separation is also not a real world example either, so let's divide that number by, say, the number of permutations for 1000 grains to be out of place, 2.474612 x 101722 :

(6.320245 ? 10^12038) / (20000 choose 1000) = 2.554035 x 1010316

With, say, one second per shake that's 8.098790x1010308 years. On average you'll need half of that.

Wikipedia on the future of the Universe tells us that--even though it may go on for an unknown amount of time after that--within 1040 years all nucleons will have decayed. That also means there won't be a bottle nor someone to shake it.

Dividing those, tells us that even if you keep on shakin' until the end of the universe, you still only have a chance of 1 in 4.049395x1010268 of ever getting that sand just somewhat sorted out again. (pay attention though, cause if you accidentally miss it, and shake it again out of habit, you can start all over again--just sayin')

As you see, this means that the chance that it happens never at all, ever is absurdly close to one.

And even if you insist that we just might happen to live, out of all possible universes, in that one-in-4.049395x1010268 universe in which this single bottle of sand will indeed randomly sort itself out, then still my initial argument, "if something is already random, it'll still be random after randomizing" holds for each and any other thing in that universe except that one bottle with a very similar staggeringly high probability.

If not, you might want to keep an eye out of Zaphod Beeblebrox and GTFO this planet because you know there'll be Vogons bound to show up any minute now.
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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #182 on: January 21, 2011, 03:35:19 PM »

Oh no, I provided an Answer.
The thing is, that question was a Koan (intentionally?  ::) maybe... maybe not).

Oh no, you provided An answer, not an Answer..

1. A kōan ..... It consists of a story, dialogue, question, or statement, the meaning of which cannot be understood by rational thinking but may be accessible through intuition. One widely known kōan is "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?" ....
2.(Zen Buddhism) A story about a Zen master and his student, sometimes like a riddle, other times like a fable, which has become an object of Zen study, and which, when meditated upon, may unlock mechanisms in the Zen student?s mind leading to satori.
....
3. A riddle with no solution, used to provoke reflection on the inadequacy of logical reasoning, and to lead to enlightenment.

(I had to google it, I'm not familiar to the meaning of Koan)


Actually is was not a "Koan". It is my way of establishing/substantiate what you (mostly you that is) said so far about Discordianism and the main way of thinking/acting. What my (probably fairly) misunderstood point was that I cannot see the ultimate usage/meaning/purpose of 'acting' this way.

Sure, one could/should/would(hyperbole follows)
decide to run naked in the streets of New York. That action shall make an impact/a difference/create a re-action on the 'normal' (wrapped because that is debatable as well) flow of events/phenomena. So far so good.
 
My question is, WHY should someone do that or what (in your example) the Professor did?
Why try to shift the local balance of the 'Order' or 'Disorder' since all you know is just that you 'shifted' it but NOT in WHAT way (because you do not know how it will evolve without your intervention, therefore, no standards). Measurable/evaluable results, either way, shall NOT exist.
An excellent and most accurate example is what BHG threaded once (http://wicca.com/forums/index.php?topic=3364.0) about the Monty Hall problem. Since you CANNOT influence the probabilities, what is the use of choosing to alter your first choice?

How I see it (except I'm missing something), it is as trying to 'randomising random'. Of course it is a hyperbole, a sense that devours its own existence *metaphor*...
And since you are hot for philosophy, I'll ask again: How do you randomise random?

I cannot give an answer in the affirmative ("Yes, it's possible to randomize random...")
I cannot give an answer in the negative ("No, it's impossible to randomize random...")

Because the nonsensical semantics render either response useless, tying us up in wondering weather the mome raths really do outgrabe or not. I had to respond with an act of genuine spontaneity (the only way out of a Koan). So you got the song lyrics I was listening to AT THAT MOMENT. (You also got a link you could listen to for the full sensory experience, the guitar work really makes that song.)

I wasn't actually expecting an answer, but then again you never know. It is rather rhetorical as a question (=/= Koan as I see it) but I gave it a shot since it was possible we weren't on the same page...

A couple more questions, less rhetorical:
What do you feel as 'special' in being a Discordian? All I can see is a very good collection of parts of different belief systems. Those parts relate smooth to one another... But then again... Being an Agnostic gives you the same 'advantage'/choice...
About the way of thinking I have to say we are a lot closer to what I believed. About the way of acting is something that troubles me.. I'd prefer a purpose in order to 'act' consciously in a 'pattern'... So, WHY do you randomise random?



Nice try tho.


Please #define.. bro :)
A try on what?




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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #183 on: January 21, 2011, 03:53:22 PM »

I don't see the problem? Doing it is very easy,  but if something is already random, it'll still be random after randomizing ...

You look too hard. Think of it like this. We are guests in a pagan forum (open to other religions) and discuss what appears to be science. Combining those two, you'll probably get what our thread (at least right now and how it appears to be) is more philosophical rather than math..

Think of it like this. If you got a bottle with very fine sand, top layer is red, bottom layer is white. If you shake it, you'll get a bottle with pink sand mixture. If you look up close, you can see the white and red grains. If you shake it again (and again, and again) it will always continue to appear as a pink sand mixture. Even though if you look up close, the grains are mixed differently.
No matter how much you shake, never will the two layers separate again.

What is not acceptable as a 'valid' probability in math has NOT necessarily the same 'impact' in philosophy and vv. (About Religion I believe is needless to elaborate)

(co-incidentally, this is the basis for the second law of thermodynamics)

Care to elaborate? :)

PS1. What Serp and zen said.
PS2. And people said I was vigorous for a newbie... *shrugs*
PS3. Hi, wellcome etc.
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blessed of coyote

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #184 on: January 22, 2011, 09:16:54 AM »


PS2. And people said I was vigorous for a newbie... *shrugs*


If you want to redefine vigorous.....
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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #185 on: January 22, 2011, 01:46:51 PM »

If you want to redefine vigorous.....

Nop, I don't think I want to. I'm PMing you a link though and knock yourself out in definitions if you want...
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Serpentium

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2011, 12:28:21 PM »

In theory, yes. But only in theory. What I gave was a real world example, I might have better said "always (within the lifetime of the universe)" and "never (within the lifetime of the universe)".

Wolfram Alpha tells us that there are 52,700 grains of sand in a litre.

With some room to shake in a 1L bottle, say that's 20,000 red grains and 20,000 white grains.

The number of permutations is 40,000! for the entire bottle. Of those permutations 20,000!2 are perfectly separated. Using Wolfram Alpha again to divide those numbers tells us the odds of getting a perfectly separated result after shaking randomly is 1 in 6.320245 ? 1012038.

Now, because you seem to be in a nitpicking mood :) I'll pre-empt your protest that perfect separation is also not a real world example either, so let's divide that number by, say, the number of permutations for 1000 grains to be out of place, 2.474612 x 101722 :

(6.320245 ? 10^12038) / (20000 choose 1000) = 2.554035 x 1010316

With, say, one second per shake that's 8.098790x1010308 years. On average you'll need half of that.

Wikipedia on the future of the Universe tells us that--even though it may go on for an unknown amount of time after that--within 1040 years all nucleons will have decayed. That also means there won't be a bottle nor someone to shake it.

Dividing those, tells us that even if you keep on shakin' until the end of the universe, you still only have a chance of 1 in 4.049395x1010268 of ever getting that sand just somewhat sorted out again. (pay attention though, cause if you accidentally miss it, and shake it again out of habit, you can start all over again--just sayin')

As you see, this means that the chance that it happens never at all, ever is absurdly close to one.

And even if you insist that we just might happen to live, out of all possible universes, in that one-in-4.049395x1010268 universe in which this single bottle of sand will indeed randomly sort itself out, then still my initial argument, "if something is already random, it'll still be random after randomizing" holds for each and any other thing in that universe except that one bottle with a very similar staggeringly high probability.

If not, you might want to keep an eye out of Zaphod Beeblebrox and GTFO this planet because you know there'll be Vogons bound to show up any minute now.
Nah, I was just being nitpicky.
(Which is unusual in itself, because I'm normally more "Edgy and provocative")  ;)
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Pterodactyl Handler

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2011, 01:49:40 PM »

My question is, WHY should someone do that or what (in your example) the Professor did?
Why try to shift the local balance of the 'Order' or 'Disorder' since all you know is just that you 'shifted' it but NOT in WHAT way (because you do not know how it will evolve without your intervention, therefore, no standards). Measurable/evaluable results, either way, shall NOT exist.

good point. What's the point of doing anything if you can't measure the effects, empirically, in advance?
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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2011, 01:56:09 PM »

good point. What's the point of doing anything if you can't measure the effects, empirically, in advance?

Not exactly. I'm pretty sure I read something like "we act to study". That is what I don't get. Claiming to do things for a purpose yet a purpose is still vague to invisible to my eyes.
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Pterodactyl Handler

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #189 on: January 25, 2011, 03:35:53 PM »

yes, their purpose is under some kind of invisibility spell to me as well.
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Serpentium

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #190 on: January 25, 2011, 09:20:41 PM »

Howard the Dolphin? Been a while since I read Illuminatus, (when I say "A while, I mean 20 years) I'm going to have to go and dig a copy up from somewhere now! Because it needs doing. I still read The Widow's Son from time to time though, and dip into The Cosmic Trigger now and again, but Illuminatus was my introduction to Lady Eris, and I'll always have a soft spot for it's surreal craziness. It's not like it's particularly well written, or even coherant in places, but it's certainly one of the most engaging books I've ever read. So much so, that I have a 17 year old Daughter called Eris.
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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #191 on: January 26, 2011, 01:50:53 PM »

Irrelevant... right..

I thought the 'cavalry' would have something better to provide to this thread.

But then again E=/=mc^2 is allways a probability, no? ;)

The Moss was a good try tho, I'll give you that.

Viva la pseudoscience!
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Passer Urbanus

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #192 on: January 26, 2011, 02:09:20 PM »

Irrelevant... right..

I thought the 'cavalry' would have something better to provide to this thread.

But then again E=/=mc^2 is allways a probability, no? ;)

The Moss was a good try tho, I'll give you that.

Viva la pseudoscience!

ZING!
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Lena

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Re: Discordianism's Role in Paganism
« Reply #193 on: January 26, 2011, 10:39:02 PM »

!!!!!
I believe you could have done better...

I would have to trust you in order to ask you to think for me. But have I really proved to you that I don't think for myself?  I gave you the opportunity to get that in PMing. Your choices =/= my lack of thinking.

I specifically noted that I'm interested on how you in particular think. I can understand how you'd like to avoid specifics, how you'd prefer vague yet brilliantly served answers or how you choose questions to answer.


It's no shame on saying 'I don't know that' or 'I haven't thought about it like that, so I cannot provide an answer (capitalise any letter if you may)' .... but "Look, I'm not going to think for you"?? I mean, really?? Your syllogism ability is far better than others' so you wouldn't loose your 'cavalry' stature.. An least not to my eyes.That is what I prefer in being an Agnostic. You know where you stand, you can answer any question (to yourself for starters and then others). I can think only one way that leads you to Discordianism.

I'm not questioning your religion, I'm questioning your way of thinking. There 'should' be a border line between those two. If not, then you ought to be the most happy/fullfiled persona I've ever met online[...]

For a closure to this (what has prooven to me as) unorganized setback,
here are some famous words:

"Bla blahddy blah. Blaahdy Blah, Baah bla. Bla bladdy blad.
Oh, and Tesla, too" -Serp.

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