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Author Topic: The Rede  (Read 16437 times)

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Snake-Man

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 12:05:30 PM »

Spellcraft is a RIFLE, not a SHOTGUN.

You should put that in your signature, man...
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Hjolmaer

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 12:06:50 PM »

Also depends on why you feel it's "our" job to "banish evil", and who you are including in this "our".
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C_A

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 12:13:05 PM »

..."Evil allowed to exist harms everyone," with which I very strongly agree. I believe (from my readings) that it is also our job to banish evil.

Thoughts???

"Evil allowed to exist" is like saying "Darkness allowed to exist".  Or "Black allowed to exist".

Think of a car battery.  With only a "positive" pole.  Your car's NOT going to start.  You can WISH it to.  You can decide that it's the engine's JOB to start...no "negative", NO start...

BALANCE.
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Joseph-Urbain

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 01:55:21 PM »

I know that there must be evil to have good but I just mean isn't it our (a witches) job to stop the evil from harming the good. I do not mean in a "dress up in tights and a tight shirt with my underwear on the outside of my pants and a gay looking mask" way. I just mean...for example aren't we fighting evil when we perform exorcisms and the like?
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Rhea Li

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 01:58:02 PM »

Not all witches are nice and loving and peaceful and against negativity in the world. Some are just the opposite I'm sure. I think you are confusing Witch with Wicca. (I capitalize what I like to capitalize, so don't ask why I do, to those of you I know that like to question such things.)

And I wonder, why do you think it's any persons job, Witch or otherwise, to "better the world" (so to speak)?
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Snake-Man

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 02:07:45 PM »

Not all witches are nice and loving and peaceful and against negativity in the world. Some are just the opposite I'm sure. I think you are confusing Witch with Wicca. (I capitalize what I like to capitalize, so don't ask why I do, to those of you I know that like to question such things.)

And I wonder, why do you think it's any persons job, Witch or otherwise, to "better the world" (so to speak)?

*Stands and salutes*  YO!!!   ;D
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Hjolmaer

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 02:11:31 PM »

Joseph:

You view it as your job to "stop the evil from harming the good".

Yet you understand the need for the existence of "evil" in order for the existence of "good"?

What would you do, lock Evil up in a cage and leave it there to rot?

And all to prevent harm?

How do we define comfort without discomfort to measure it against?

How do we measure health without illness to measure it against?

How do we define love without hate to measure it against?

And Shaara makes an excellent point.  You seem to be confusing Wicca with Witchcraft.  The two are distinctly separate entities.

And what, pray tell, makes you think that it is somehow your job to "stop evil" anyway?  The Rede?

Here's the Rede.  In all it's glory.

Quote
  People without experience in Middle English (fake or otherwise) sometimes see "An it harm none, do as you will," and incorrectly believe it states "harm none".  While such a mistake is in syntax, we'll ignore that for a while and treat the phrase as if it does say "harm none."  The goal of the Rede, in this version, is to do no harm to others, to the world around oneself and to the individual, which seems quite admirable.  People who believe this feel they can move through the universe being creatures of growth and light, doing harm to nothing via sensible eating, sensitive life decisions and a complete embracing of a better-than-the-rest ideology.  They sneer at leather and video games, cars and eating meat, even at people's decisions to have children in their attempt to harm none.

   In reality, harming none fails as a mature theological construct.  If you breath, you harm microbes that die upon contact with your respiratory tract.  If you eat, you harm animals, plants, yeasts and microscopic molds living on most foods.  If you reproduce, you create a drain on resources.  if you don't' reproduce, you don't pass on you genes and can be seen as harming your ancestors.  In the most extreme case, if you go out to the forest and die (having, of course, ceased to breath and eat), you kill the plants you land upon by over-fertilization, and create a smell that, at the least, will lower property values.

   To this reality, our misunderstood harm-noners defend their actions by claiming that "harm none" is a goal, not a commandment.  This, say those who see the Rede as the prime belief of Wicca, reduces the Wiccan Rede to a suggestion, to mere advice, not the rule of thumb it has been in Wicca in the past.  Beginning Wiccans surf the net or pick up books to hear one group say that absolutely nothing must be harmed in order to live at one with the Rede, while still others say that breaking the Rede, even once, makes a person not a Wiccan.  These two points of view, both incorrect from a strictly grammatical reading of the Rede, are completely incompatible.

   It is not surprising, then, that our newbies are confused.  In reality, the Rede states "An it harm none, do as you will."  This is really a very literal statement.  "An it harm none," which means "If it does no harm" or "Those things/actions which do no harm," followed by "do as you will." It is not "do only those things that harm none" - a theological construct that makes no sense - but instead "do those things that cause no harm as you will."  That statement does not speak to those actions that do cause harm; those things are covered in the rest of the religion.  ...../.....  In discussing a more mature and historically relevant Wiccan Rede then, we see it not as a suggestion or commandment, but a simple how-to statement: Live your life so that you do freely those actions which cause no harm; those actions with the potential to harm are done only in a manner that corresponds to the rest of your religion.  It is not a statement of what not to do, but what to do.  It's not a prohibition or a thou-shalt-not, but a way to live and act.


*Excerpt from "Wicca 333: Advanced Topics in Wiccan Belief" pg 9-11 by Kaatryn MacMorgan-Douglas*

To "stop evil" would be to impose your concept of good on someone else.  Thereby imposing on their free will, and their ability to make their own choices.

Which is more vile: to harm another, or to take away another's ability to choose?

Balance......think over what Shaara and others have said about it.....
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Rhea Li

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 02:16:50 PM »

*Stands and salutes*  YO!!!   ;D

I guess that means one of those "just the opposite witches" is accounted for? :-p

And to be more on topic: @Joseph  H brings up some pretty spot on points. He gives one quite a bit to ponder on. So, really think about it before answering. Roll it all over in your mind and see not just in black and white, because in the real world, there are a lot of grey areas.

ETA: In other words, take off those "rose colored lenses". It might be uncomfortable, but keeping them on all the time keeps one from growing. I learned that the hard way.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 02:18:29 PM by Shaara-chan »
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Joseph-Urbain

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 02:37:53 PM »

OK, Thank you.
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alyceavary

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

I know that there must be evil to have good but I just mean isn't it our (a witches) job to stop the evil from harming the good. I do not mean in a "dress up in tights and a tight shirt with my underwear on the outside of my pants and a gay looking mask" way. I just mean...for example aren't we fighting evil when we perform exorcisms and the like?

Sounds like someone has watched 1 too many episodes of Charmed....you are not one of the Halliwells.  I LOVE the show, but I realize a LOT of what is/was portrayed on that show is FICTION!!  I've never come across demons trying to kill me or Whitelighters or the like.  I HAVE traveled to different Realms & met other races/"species" (can't think of the word), that may be viewed as "evil", but they don't exist here.

Evil is a relative term.  Many view Hitler & bin Laden as evil, but they REALLY believe they are good & others were evil.  My brother likes to point out that Hitler did some very good things for Germany, while saying he disagrees with Hitler's views/philosophies.  Hitler caused Germany to reunite & get back on the positive side financially.  He caused Germany to become a world power again.  Was Hitler a bastard? Of COURSE, but in his eyes he was doing the right thing "for the greater good".  Look at bin Laden, I believe on 9/11/01, we saw world peace for the FIRST time....it was a flicker but it was there.  The entire world united in grief to say "this was WRONG".  It's a different opinion now, but it happened.  Osama BELIEVES he is interpreting his holy laws/religion correctly & that the US is evil.  Who is right?  Who is wrong?

It's all about perspective.  What I consider "evil" doesn't necessarily match with what anyone else defines as "evil".
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Joseph-Urbain

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 02:46:40 PM »

No, I got my theory from chapter 6, pages 42-45 (The Wiccan Rede) from Wicca- The Complete Craft by D. J. Conway Author of Celtic Magic
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Hjolmaer

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 03:09:34 PM »

Never read that one.   I think the HPS has it.  Might have to steal it from her for a bit.

But to be honest, evil is subjective.  It's all about perspective.  Like alyceavary pointed out.

So, even if you wanted to "defeat evil" (and the gods only know why you'd want to), how would you define it?  What would classify/quantify/characterize "evil"?
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Joseph-Urbain

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 03:45:46 PM »

Just check that book out. Page 42. That will explain exactly what I meant to say in my origanal post. I was not sure how to word it without typing out the entire chapter (which I am NOT inclined to do lol). It explains a valid point that I agree with and you may to when you read it but I do not think I can do it Justice.
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Hjolmaer

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 03:53:14 PM »

Give it a shot anyway.
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Joseph-Urbain

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Re: The Rede
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 04:30:13 PM »

Ok, well I already said that the well known witch Sybil Leek advised that a codicil should be added to the rede that says ?Evil, allowed to exist harms everyone.? It says that it is a witch?s duty to fight against evil, not to pretend it doesn?t exist or will go away if you ignore it. Some people get confused because they believe that to confront evil is ?black? magic.

It says in this book that there are three types of magic called White magic, Black Magic, and Gray Magic. It says that the Gray Witch is the most powerful of the three. To meet daily needs, the witch must do what needs to be done in the least offensive manner, but certainly never turn away from evil as if it does not exist. Never compromise with evil.

To only believe in either white or black magic limits the exploration of truth and knowledge, because by their very natures white and black magic are extremes. There is little, if any room in any extreme to see truth as the multiplicity it is. Gray magic gives the witch the opportunity to look at all sides of any given situation and take necessary action with the least harm to all involved, particularly the witch doing the spell work, who works for the good of all, whether for witches or not.

White magic is similar to a simple form of poetry and prayer to the goddess and the god. Some wiccans who are afraid to go past white magic also refuse to believe that they should do anything to fight evil.

Black magic deals entirely with evil negative energies or demons, and unethical actions to gain results, usually personal power over others. Black magic is predicated primarily on greed: greed for control, power, possessions, or for any kind of self-aggrandizement. They usually ignore their conscience.

I could go on for forever but I am going to stop here because I do believe I have explained my position thoroughly now.
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