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Author Topic: Curious Christian  (Read 7920 times)

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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2013, 05:20:22 PM »

I would argue that man has kept the bible around this long.  It is also man that has made it the most purchased book in history.  I don't see how God would need the bible since it was supposedly inspired by Him.  It is for human consumption not divine. 

Check out some of the other threads if you want to see real thread drift.  :-p  If you would like, I will be more than happy to remove the drifted posts.  Let me know.
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Jakinbandw

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 05:27:18 PM »

Nah, don't worry about it. I don't mind a little thread drift, I was just surprised how sudden and random it was. That said I do enjoy randomness so I was more amused than anything.

As for why God would want the Bible to exist; I believe he wants as many beings as possible to go to heaven. And yes I agree, it was man that kept it around, but I believe that is just part of Gods plan. That said I don't know what his plan is, but I believe it is to make the world a better place in the long run. That is central to my faith.
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 05:31:49 PM »

The thread drift, or derail as we call it is a natural progression and expected. You've got yourself quite a mild one here. Some go off on tangents not even related. I did leave a link in the old thread location, all you had to do was to click it, it would have brought you right here.  ::)
 
Every thing has a life force integral to its being, even if it's only a residual energy. The molecules in your body are the same molecules as are in a rock, a plant, a coin, a comet, a star and so on. The make up or structure of these molecules may be different but the component parts are the same. Why then would there not be energy?
 
I too have read the Bible, the King James, New English, Good News and various others. The inescapable fact is that there are books of the Bible that are missing, and they've been missing so long now that they are forgotten. There was a time when only the clergy were allowed to read the Bible and in turn this was relayed to the parishoners, peasants and so on. The interpretations were those of the church and they were altered to suit the needs of the church at the time. It was instrumental in the putting down of Witches, for the integration of the church within society. It was adjusted to say what the "Holy Mother Church" needed it to say at any given time. This has been proven by theologins, this didn't come from Pagans, so there is no bias here in what I say. There is indeed a lot that is still intact but I don't know to what extent.  The old testament as I'm sure I said earlier is more of a history book and yes it does indeed pertain to the Jewish peoples - God's chosen race - . Which raises a question doesn't it? why were they chosen and the rest cast aside? Anyway thats another issue for another time. Now no disrespect is intended here but, if God preserved the words of the Bible, then why are there so many changes? books and chapters missing? The so called integrity of the Bible is what the church would have the people believe, and this is one of the problems with organised religion. I offer no disrespect to you with any of this, your belief is yours to follow, and I will never try to disuade you from your path; no Pagan would. In Paganism, we advise people to read and read and read, there is no one single author, but many and they will all give different views. From that you must then interpret in your own way what that means to you. The Bible however is pretty much the same all over though, you will only find differences in accompanying journals etc to the Bible and you are told what and how it should be interpreted.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2013, 05:41:18 PM »

So jak, take no offense, so you think all those who don't follow the bible are going to hell?
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Jakinbandw

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2013, 06:50:21 PM »

@Earthbound Spirit: I never once said that. And I hope that I never even implied that. There is a thing that Jesus says that sums up my feelings on it:
Quote
Mathew 25 NRSV
34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[g] you did it to me.’

Notice that it doesn't say Christians, or Believers, or some such, but instead it says Righteous. I don't believe that any group of people holds a monopoly on the Righteous. In fact there is a part in the old testament that backs me up even more. I'm going to find it right now, but it essentially goes that after the Jews cross the Red Sea a nearby King gets scared and goes to a powerful Mage in his land asking him to curse the Jews. The Mage refuses but the King insists. Forced by the King to say something the Mage blesses the Israelites three separate times. Eventually the King gets mad and leaves. Now This person is not a Jew, and not much is given about his faith, but he is definitely working with God in some way even though he can't be a Christian.  That's why I am not here to 'save' you. I believe I can do more good by clearing up misunderstandings in my own church than I can yelling at people for trying to be good people in a way that is different from mine.

@Draconis Rex: Yeah, that's how I got here. I just wanted it to sound more epic. And you ruined my fun! How could you, you bad, bad man you?!!! :(
 :-p  ;)

I understand what you are saying about energy, I was just curious if you could use it for conversing, or asking the rock to do something. I didn't think you could, just that it would be neat. That and the bible mentions a few times about rocks calling out if people were to stay silent.

As for Bibles I go by the NRSV. Interestingly it only mentions witchcraft once in this translation, and that is is between how you should eat meat, and how you should cut your hair, so I suspect that it only applied to Jews at that time. Like a lot of the rules from the old testament. Other than that it talks about a few different types of magic that shouldn't be used but... *shrug* I am not to up on that.

Now as for how I view it. I don't think that dying is the worst thing in the world as I believe there is an afterlife. So with that said I believe that short of destroying freewill that how things have turned out up till now are for the best. By that I mean the most people possible ended up going to heaven.

And as I said, I am researching, just in a non-traditional way. I don't trust books about the truth, and to be honest, I think that if I hadn't read the Bible already, I probably wouldn't. I figure I am getting a decent amount of different views as I slowly talk around to each of the differing religions and denominations. Finally I believe that there is more truth if fiction than in non-fiction because people don't feel as constrained in fiction. They pour parts of themselves into the works they right that they normally would hide from the world.

But then again, maybe I am just crazy.
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marisol

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2013, 06:54:39 PM »

Hey Jak I love the Lord my God he's just not the same one you love. My God and Goddess are
loving and guide me down my path with kindness. They are not vengeful or angry. They are extentions of the divine on earth. They are always with me, my church is nature. No minister or
priest is needed. I worship no man, require no go between to reach the God and Goddess. Feel
no fear of them.

I need no story book to tell me what I should or shouldn"t do. I have eternal life. I don't believe in
the devil or hell. When I pass there will be peace and rest before I return for the next lifetime. I
don't fear for my soul.

Jesus was a kind gentle man used to increase the christian religion. He had only to die painfully
to ensure your salvation and eternal life. He was given no choice. If you had been Jesus, would
you have prayed to your father for intervention? Or cried out in pain while dying for the masses
of humanity that didn't know or care who you were?

Sending love and blessings your way.
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Draconis Rex

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 07:14:43 PM »

I will get back to this on the morrow
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Jakinbandw

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 07:36:13 PM »

@Marisol: I honestly don't know what to make of your post. I feel like it is directed towards Christianity, but I kind of hope that it isn't and you are stating your beliefs. If I've given any of you the impression that I am hateful and vengeful and acting sadistically than I have failed in the most epic way possible, and I apologize. I didn't mean to insult you in any way or to attack your Faith. If I am just causing problems tell me and I will leave you in peace.

In fact I am confused. I thought what I have been told was that rituals are required to talk to your god and goddess, and that is what magic is. And I have been told to read a bunch of books. Though I am glad to know that you believe in Reincarnation. I have always had a few questions about that.

And finally, maybe by Paganism Jesus didn't have a choice, but in Christianity it is quite clear that he did, and that that was God himself doing it. Different sides of the coin. Though one side we call God and the other side Jesus, both are the same entity. Again, I am not sure where you get that Jesus didn't have a choice from.

Again, I am truly sorry if I have been coming across and vindictive and inflammatory. That was truly not my intent. 

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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 07:36:23 PM »

@Earthbound Spirit: I never once said that. And I hope that I never even implied that. There is a thing that Jesus says that sums up my feelings on it:

What did I ask you?  Was it not to take offense?  You did a good job of not answering the question.  :-p

As for why God would want the Bible to exist; I believe he wants as many beings as possible to go to heaven. And yes I agree, it was man that kept it around, but I believe that is just part of Gods plan. That said I don't know what his plan is, but I believe it is to make the world a better place in the long run. That is central to my faith.

The highlighted part is why I asked the question.  You seemed to be saying that the people that God sees fit to allow into heaven follow the bible.  Hence my question to you.  So do you believe that the bible must be followed to make it into heaven?  You ain't going to offend anyone. :)

ETA:  I know what Jesus said.  It is a question directed at you and your personal beliefs.  Feel free to ask me anything about mine.

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lucifer

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Re: Curious Christion
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 08:26:11 PM »

In fact I am confused. I thought what I have been told was that rituals are required to talk to your god and goddess, and that is what magic is. And I have been told to read a bunch of books. Though I am glad to know that you believe in Reincarnation. I have always had a few questions about that.
We all interpret our own paths and I believe that only Arnemetia and myself gave you clear markers as to what we believed in regards to what you were asking... Marisol is not Wiccan

::edited::
removed some questionable content
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:26:22 PM by lucifer »
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alyceavary

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 08:44:29 PM »

A ritual can be done or not done. I don't need to call the corners everytime I want to have a conversation with my Goddess, I might have to with my God because he is drunk and passed out half the time, thereby harder to get a hold of. If I want to ask a question or get clarification, it's as easy as asking. Let me try to illustrate.

If your mom is sick and dying in a hospital, do you go to the local church and take communion and ask a priest for advice for confession? Or do you simply start praying at her bedside or in the lobby? If you want to nail a job interview and REALLY want the job, how do you ask God for help? A big ritual or a quick little prayer. It is the same for me, if I want to talk to my Goddess, I start talking, no need for a big ritual. There have been times when She has come to me without me asking, catching me completely by surprise.

And Luci, as far as I know, Marisol follows a Wiccan path. I could be wrong and it's not really my place to speak for her, but that was the impression I was always under.

I have to say though, it feels like we are talking in circles. It seems like we keep answering the same questions over and over again. It could just be me, but it feels like I keep seeing multiple posts with the same answer. For example, the repeated questions about what exactly energy is. Again, I could be wrong and my interpretation could be wrong.
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Earthbound Spirit

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 08:58:39 PM »

Lucifer, I can quote the bible.  Let the guy  speak for himself.  He don't need you answering for him.  Was I wrong to ask the question?  Based on the highlighted part, God keeps the bible around so everyone will go to heaven was why I asked.  I am not trying to beat the guy up.  He has come here and is asking questions about our beliefs so I returned the favor. I mean no harm, so lighten up dude.  Too much stress is bad for you......  ;D

Eta: A quote from the bible does not answer a yes or no question. 
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lucifer

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2013, 09:02:52 PM »

Eta: A quote from the bible does not answer a yes or no question.
Just as well... check your messages.

@alyceavery: Yeah, you're right... marisol does seem to subscribe to Wicca
::edit::
Just as well, though... we all still define our own paths :-p
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Gimli

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2013, 10:17:59 PM »

Wow! Jak, this is a great thing! And, please take this as a compliment as intended, thank you for practicing something all faiths and religions believe in (at least in my limited knowledge).....courtesy and learning.

As for myself, born and raised Southern Baptist. Baptised at my choice at 9. Fast forward a few years and it no longer was right for me and I moved away from formal church and praying to "God", into a search mode and praying/talking  to what I felt sure as my blood and the sun on my skin was real....an unnamed higher power.
Fast forward again and I still believe in that "power", only now I have a direction and connection more personal to "it". I have also come to believe personally that it is very possible that this "power" CAN be the same many know differently, just called by different names. Whether it's God, God/Goddess, Celtic, Norse, Egyptian it could be that they all come back to the same "one" similar to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

Just my view, and new as I am to having found this direction in my path I felt hearing from someone newer could show you just how varied we all are yet also similar. You'll see something like this "It's personal and a bit different for each person" repeated in some way over and over in your research and reading on Paganism.

As for Magic, for me it's a simple view: Science allows me to combine specific herbs to ease a sore throat or upset stomach, or even stimulate a person in a certain way (think chamomile tea, aroma therapy type things). The Magic comes in being able to sense that "energy" within myself and the herbs and then shift/condense/add/subtract etc. that "energy" to improve the chances of achieving the goal. That's my simplified view and explanation of Magic.
And yes, I "pray" for guidance and assistance like most other "religions" do also. Again, I have yet to put a "correct" name to it for me personally though. After all, it IS a personal thing between me and that power and no one else. When it wants me to know a name I will and not before.

So, last thing I can say is what is repeated to everyone either practicing a Pagan path or just trying to learn about Paganism and the "paths"...read, then read some more. Oh yeah, read even more and THEN....yep, keep reading. ;)

I think Arn said in another thread something like "Isn't it funny how when we set out to teach that in the process we become the student?". Your searching and questions help us learn also, and for that I thank you.

Blessed Be!

***Legal Disclaimer: The above post is solely the view and opinions of the idiot that wrote it. It is in no way intended to reflect upon the author or any other any sense of nobility real or imagined. A bill was sent for the celebrity spokesperson and Model T car.  ;D ***
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Jakinbandw

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Re: Curious Christian
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2013, 10:34:34 PM »

Wow, I missed a lot. Okay, let me try to clear this up:

@Earthbound Spirit: Put simply, no, I don't think you need to be a Christian or even to have read the Bible to go to heaven. I do however believe that there is a lot of good hints on how to be a good person in the Bible, so I would say following the Bible helps. That was what I was trying to say in my post and I guess I should have been clearer.

On the other hand I also believe that the Bible is but one map to God. There are many others out there and if you follow one of those, then good for you. Personally I believe the most in Christianity because that was what I was brought up with and God, or gods or whatever still saved my life through a miracle so I figure He/they can't be that opposed to me being a Christian. That said I would also give the disclaimer that this is my own belief, and I recognize that once I hit the afterlife that I could be completely wrong and the only thing I'm sure of is that whoever is up there doesn't seem to mind that I am a Christian, and how I believe as a Christian. It's actually a complicated subject that I could probably better render in a flowchart.. :p

Just saw your second post, and realized I should make my point clearer. Everything that happens in this world is influenced by God to try to bring the most people possible to heaven. You have free will yes, but since God can see how every person would react to every single situation he can manipulate events with extreme subtly and achieve his goal despite our free will. If you want I can go further into this. The long and short of it is that I believe that the Bible is around because it is important to get some people to heaven. I also feel the same way about your Pagan texts, they are key to bringing at least one person in some way to heaven, or to prevent someone from not making it into heaven.

@alyceavary: Well, considering my mother is sick with a terminal illness right now that is slowly effecting her brain this is a bit close to home. That said I don't do more than offer a short prayer every night along the lines of "Thy will be done" and to watch over her. I actually really don't like asking God for anything. I would never even dare to ask for help getting a job. I know that a lot of people do, but to me it is something that I just can't imagine doing. About the only prayer that I feel really comfortable praying is the Lords Prayer, and that is only because I have specific approval for it.

So what about other things? Well, I do ask for understanding, but mostly I just say thanks to God. I have complete faith that he knows what he's doing. I don't need to tell God what I want and need, He knows. When I was dying I never prayed to be saved. I just prayed the Lords Prayer over and over and over again for almost an hour. I was kinda surprised to be alive afterwards in fact. I was preparing to die and go to hell, though I was hoping to go to heaven. And yes, I know. I don't have a very high opinion of myself. I personally think that heaven might be better off without me, though I hope that I am wrong. On the other hand if I do go to hell, I have my eternity planned out assuming I've guessed right! I'll work and designing the best RPG system ever in my mind! Fair warning though, the subject of where I personally go after I die is kind of touchy to me, so expect any responses that I give to be extremely emotional.

Oh, yeah, I agree about going in circles right now though. A few posts back I said I felt that I understood Paganism, and magic in a broad sense. The only other question I had was about what Pagans believed happened after death, but marisol answered that for me, assuming he speaks for everyone else? Other than that I was just throwing out a request for any other information that people might think important that I didn't think to ask about.

@lucifer: I just realized that I can't make fun of your username because I once was on a site and jokingly held the title of 'Devil.' Drat! And I get that everyone defines their own paths, but his post just caught me out of left field. I guess it makes sense that there would be some Pagans that just relied on their ability to communicate with their gods, just, you know, after the flow of the conversation I wasn't expecting it.

@Gimli You made it in just before I posted, which will make this even longer!

Um, not much to say to that. I think we agree on pretty much everything except I don't personally practice magic, but other than that...

Do you believe in reincarnation or in heaven? I'm just curious to see how far the Pagan faith stretches.
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