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Author Topic: The Lord and The Lady  (Read 8625 times)

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Ashe Isadora

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The Lord and The Lady
« on: April 20, 2014, 06:37:29 AM »

Many folks have a duotheistic view of divinity and see the deities simply as the Lord and the Lady. rather than worshiping specific aspects such as Cerridwen or Herne.  They often define the Lord and Lady by cataloging feminine and masculine attributes such as the hunting instinct or the ability to nurture and attribute them accordingly.

But this raises a question.  Isn't this a slippery slope? How can we do this without stereotyping and making sexist assumptions? I'm not devaluing anyone's perception of the divine here or their liturgy, but I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts.
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Arnemetia

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 08:16:44 AM »

Even though I refer to them as Mother and Father or Lord and Lady, I think of them as two different energies.  I don't believe it to be sexist or stereotyping, just my way of understanding.
In nature, two energies are needed to propagate the species.  I believe in the spiritual (for lack of a better word) world, dual energies are also needed.  Whether we think of them as male and female or positive and negative, one alone cannot do the job. 
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 01:17:49 PM »

Even though I refer to them as Mother and Father or Lord and Lady, I think of them as two different energies.  I don't believe it to be sexist or stereotyping, just my way of understanding.
In nature, two energies are needed to propagate the species.  I believe in the spiritual (for lack of a better word) world, dual energies are also needed.  Whether we think of them as male and female or positive and negative, one alone cannot do the jo
Do you think of them as archetypes?
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Draconis Rex

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 02:47:55 PM »

I am an agnostic, however I am familiar with the male and female aspects, my own opinion says that the male and female is in everything, positive/negative, good/bad, dark/light, yin/yang. They are two halves of the whole, as we are. We are individuals, each of us, but we are only one half of a whole and this is how I would see the God and Goddess. Furthermore they are equal, male and female/ masculine and feminine.
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marisol

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 05:16:28 AM »

I most often refer to the god and goddess as simply equal yet opposite. Feminine and
masculine, each one half of the whole. One cannot work without the other. Yet....
I do call upon a certain aspect of one or both by calling upon a certain god or goddess,
for example Selena. Depending upon what I am doing.

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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 04:28:18 AM »

But how do you decide what's feminine and what's masculine?
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Draconis Rex

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 05:22:13 AM »

That's a fair question, but is not a lot already predetermined? And we have accepted as such? Who decided the Moon should be the feminine aspect for instance? I think other than the sexism side of things, that we humans are predisposed to, the question becomes an exercise in philosophy.
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Canis

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »

It seems to me that earliest humans based feminine and masculine aspects in large on what they observed.

It's the female of each species that gives birth to offspring, and in many species it's the female that's primarily, if not solely, responsible for nurturing and rearing the young. I their blossoming religious beliefs, the feminine aspect came to be associated with birth and nurturing.

In many species, though by no means all, the male is slightly larger in size. The larger size was equated with strength, and these aspects came to be associated with the masculine. Even as religions and knowledge changed throughout the ages, these aspects remained. Even though the feminine and masculine each represent different aspects and roles, it's only when the two come together that the greatest magic, the creation of life, could be preformed. And only with balance of these two aspects can there be true harmony.

Those are just two examples, but brief research or even observing the natural world through the eyes of our ancient ancestors will reveal more examples.
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 06:49:30 PM »

So where do you draw the line between "observed characteristics" and "gender stereotypes"?
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Arnemetia

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 09:38:20 AM »

Even though I refer to them as Mother and Father or Lord and Lady, I think of them as two different energies.  I don't believe it to be sexist or stereotyping, just my way of understanding.
In nature, two energies are needed to propagate the species.  I believe in the spiritual (for lack of a better word) world, dual energies are also needed.  Whether we think of them as male and female or positive and negative, one alone cannot do the jo
Do you think of them as archetypes?

A hard question to answer.  I suppose I would.  As a human, my vision of divinity is in my own form, that of male and female.  The attributes of each though I tend to go with observed characteristics.
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marisol

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 01:18:10 PM »

So where do you draw the line between "observed characteristics" and "gender stereotypes"?

Stereotypes rarely communicate accurate information these days as far as I'm concerned.
I feel depending upon gender stereotyping hinders personal growth. So, for me observed
characteristics is the way I identify male and female or positive and negative. I do not
always identify divinity in human form, but more as simply energy without form. But still
as feminine and masculine. I don't know maybe I sound seriously confused, but I don't
feel as tho I am.
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TheGreenWizard

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 08:12:21 PM »

Not to derail your topic Ashe, however, I have a question in a similar vein.


In the Wiccan tradition, the tenet of "You shall harm none" - and its various versions - is an absolute, for it goes against the Divine energy of the Lord and Lady (as I have gathered from Cunningham's Solitary Practitioner book). However, if the Lady and Lord are similar, if not exactly the same as, the concepts of Ying and Yang - where the two are opposites, yet have a little bit of each other within the other, and thus are linked - then, could one also state that this flux of energies is inherently imbalanced, in the sense that if there is creative magic, shouldn't there also be destructive magic? Likewise, if there is "good" magic, shouldn't there also be "bad" or "evil" magic?


Maybe I'm conflating a few ideas here, but can someone make sense of that? (if not, let me know, and I'll try to elucidate it in the AM).
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2014, 08:23:25 PM »

Not a derailment, just a minor excursion and the issue is tangentially relevant.  When my head cold and medicine clear my system I'll take a crack at an answer.  Anyone else feel free to get a jump start on this. Though Wicca is not based on a good vs evil paradigm, it is a religion of balance and free will. So good question.
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 07:56:44 AM »



Most Wiccans believe that evil exists as an exercise of free will but it's not in battle with good in the way that, for example, a Christian might see the universe as being in a constant good vs evil struggle.  Evil and good simply ARE.  Added to this this gods are not all good or all perfect as humans would see it.  They have their faults and foibles. Exactly what Scott meant when he referred to the divine I'm not sure.  I love Scott, but he took his excursions now and then and his opinions often speak to his path of Wicca influenced paganism and do not reflect common Wiccan thought.
 
I'd add that there is no law that Wiccans can harm none. That's a common misconception.  'Do as ye will an' you harm none" just means don't sweat it about doing things that don't hurt anyone.  That's not the same as saying you must never harm.  Sometimes destructive magic or a destructive by product of our actions, including magic, serve a greater purpose and Wiccans take personal responsibility for this.  Same with our Rede.  It advises us to stay away from harm but it is not an edict.  The Rede is good advice, not a commandment.  Don't get me started.....
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Nieske

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 01:47:43 AM »

Sometimes destructive magic or a destructive by product of our actions, including magic, serve a greater purpose and Wiccans take personal responsibility for this.

My thoughts exactly.
Destructive energy is also not necessarily a bad thing. Dead leaves on the ground create nutrients for the seeds that lie dormant, the lioness kills the gazelle to feed her cubs. Harm can be needed for growth.
This is for me also how the Lord and Lady work, I see them as the Life-Taker and the Life-Giver. Always in harmony with each other, but at opposite ends of the scale.
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