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Author Topic: The Lord and The Lady  (Read 7356 times)

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MoonlitWings

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2014, 08:33:03 AM »

I agree with you Drac on that one.
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Alchymist

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2014, 11:36:11 PM »

Ah, but Alchy that illustrates a point I touched on earlier.  How can you categorize intuition as feminine and intellect as masculine without buying into stereotypes?

This is a sticky subject, for sure.

I agree, that's always a danger, but for me it's more a matter of acknowledging and celebrating the different ways in which men and women - and, presumably, Gods and Goddesses - relate to their worlds, rather than buying into stereotypes. I characterise intuition as a feminine quality because women, in general, seem to be more in touch with their intuitive, right-brain powers whereas men typically view the world through a left-brain, intellectual filter; not always, but often. I've known highly intellectual women (my first wife, for one) and intuitive men - I find that I, personally, seem to operate very much on intuition, and I've been told, by several women whose opinions I respect, that I have a "female soul" - so, the differences seem to me to be merely convenient descriptors, not absolutes or stereotypes.

This is, after all, what the primary Quest of Magic and Alchemy is about; striving to become the perfected human being, the "Alchemical Androgyne", wherein the masculine and feminine sides of our natures are in perfect balance and harmony, the Middle Pillar of the Quabalistic Tree of Life ...... we can never quite get there, perhaps - not, at least, in a single lifetime - or even at all, on this Earthly plane - but it's the aim of the Magical Quest to bring each of us closer to that goal; the Sangreal, the Philosopher's Stone - "The World", Major Arcana number 21 of the Tarot.

...... why else do you think "She" wears that wisp of a scarf, "She" who hovers, wingless, in midair, a Wand in each hand?......

Alchymist. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:57:57 PM by Alchymist »
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marisol

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2014, 05:54:09 AM »

Well that's interesting I'm sure I am aware of this, but always as a given as the wheel turns.
It's not something I think much about. :)
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C_A

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2014, 08:31:53 AM »

Ah, but Alchy that illustrates a point I touched on earlier.  How can you categorize intuition as feminine and intellect as masculine without buying into stereotypes?

Ahem...without sounding too cheeky...SO?

"Stereotypes" do not spring fully formed from someone's forehead.  They are accreted.  And there's not a thing wrong with that.  A HUGE percentage of everything that *Nature-based* religions DO is based in "stereotype".  We seem to sidestep it by calling it "archetype".

Of course there are above and beyond hyper intelligent feminines, (regardless of physical plumbing) and of course there are super-sensitive masculines, (physicality also stipulated).  ON the WHOLE, we bear the stripes of our archetypes.  Pick ANY "Rom-Com" movie and, with doggone few exceptions, these stereotypes are the absolute-zero root of the entire play.  Most of the things we deal with, daily, are also generally fenced in by those stereotypes.

And there's nothing...err...not enough wrong with that to be significant in any way other than to assuage an occasional minority voice.  That's not to invalidate that voice on an individual level, but, in fact, to validate that individuality.  "I Nature, all tigers are orange and black".  "OOoohh!  But that's a stereotype!  I have seen WHITE ones!"  Yes, you have.  And yes, they are beautiful.  But exactly how many of them do you need to go back, as a society, and re-write every book on every shelf that has ever been written that states that all tigers are orange and black?
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Ashe Isadora

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2014, 08:28:44 AM »

Cheeky's fine.  i'm too old and too many times around a Wiccan circle to be struggling with this, but there you go.  A clear answer I'll mull over carefully, so thanks.

Hopefully coming up with a "d'oh" question was good for my character.
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Kuerden D˙ghlas

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2015, 03:39:04 PM »

To me it's kind of interesting that the Rede, which is actually a statement of empowerment and tells us what we can do, has been reduced to the two words "harm none"  which is usually quoted out of context to the rest of the sentence.

I've read it argued that reducing it to those two words also changes the meaning.

The best examination that I have found is The Wiccan Rede: A Historical Journey by John J. Coughlin.

I'll come back to the original question at another time (soon).

UPDATE: Tonight I happened upon this interesting comment from Jesterbear:

Quote
The following quote from Hans Holzer implied that Doreen Valiente was quoting the couplet to encourage harmonious interaction between covens. Hans Holzer's interpretations are not always the most accurate, but portions of what he wrote are historically meaningful, because they have an early publication date.

    Demanding tolerance between covens as well as toward the outside world, Doreen spoke the Anglo-Saxon witch formula called the Wiccan Rede or wise teaching: "Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil, An' it harm none, do what ye will." --Hans Holzer, The Truth about Witchcraft, 1971, p. 128

I would not be surprised if publication of Holzer's book was one of the first sources where American Wiccan learned the Rede. I remember his book being on the reading list that my first teacher gave me in the '70s.

And another interesting article I read this evening, "The Wiccan Rede and the Threefold Law," suggests,

"In the absence of any other verifiable text, the weight of evidence points to the 'Three-Fold Law', as commonly quoted, not having been a part of any 'Wiccan' tradition on which Gardner's original work may have been based."
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 08:33:41 AM by Kuerden D˙ghlas »
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Kuerden D˙ghlas

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2015, 04:59:03 PM »

Well darn Michael, I kind of liked the idea of redefining what praxis means.

Me, too! (Hi Michael! *waves* We were friends at WT.) I still think that idea of "serving our gods outside of ritual as part of our praxis" deserves further exploration, personally. I mean, are we only Witches when we're inside the Circle? No. Of course not.

OK, I really am going to tackle the question about the Lord/Lady next.  ;)

B*B
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Firesong

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2015, 10:40:59 PM »

Quote
Now "widdershins" is counter clockwise, and the waning moon is after the full moon, when it is "dwindling." This is the time to get rid of unwanted habits, weight, bad feelings, or anything you wish to be rid of. "Baneful" comes from "banish" and that's what it means.

Baneful comes from "bane", and "bane" has no relationship I've  been able to fine to the word banish.  Baneful is poisonous or noxious.

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This "Rede" is the law by which Witches Wiccans live, with harm to none. Harming none, includes not harming yourself. The term "Harm" and what actually contitutes harm to another being, is a convoluted concept, and requires thought and meditation on the part of the WitchWiccan, to weigh possible consequences of actions to see if harm will result. Also bear in mind that you have no right to do magick or cast spells on another person WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION! This IS considered harm, as you are forcing your will on them, even if you are doing a healing spell. This concept can be the most difficult for a person new to the Craft to grasp, yet it is the most important, and the cornerstone of our religion and beliefs. It makes you totally responsible for your actions and their results. If you have a dilemma, it's best to get another informed opinion before acting, especially if you are strongly and emotionally attached to the result.

The only person you can work all the magick you like for is yourself!

Why do people seem to think that Wiccan rules apply to all Witches?  As a witch, I am responsible for what I do, not by choice, or because of any "rede", but because that's the way the universe works.  We are all responsible for all our actions, mundane or magical.

Because it's impossible for me to anticipate any situation I may encounter in the future, why would I put any limits on my actions, beyond my own personal code of ethics?

I once asked, under the rede, how you would send healing energy to someone who was unable to give permission, because of age, illness or other infirmity.  The answer was to address the workings to the individual's higher self, and let it decide if it was in agreement, and would allow it.

How is this any different for anybody?  We all have higher selves.  When you send healing energy to an animal, it can't give you permission; when you send healing energy to a situation(environmental issues,etc), it can't give you permission. 

I believe there are just some things you need to rely on your intuition for, rather than trying to decipher someone else's instructions or paint by numbers.  I think people need to realize it's an "abstract", rather than an absolute, at least in my view.     
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Alchymist

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Re: The Lord and The Lady
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2015, 12:49:29 AM »

When we reduce the Wiccan Rede to the mere two words, "Harm none", we, first of all, set ourselves a  standard impossible to attain, and secondly we render ourselves toothless and clawless in the face of external threats.

"Harm none", interpreted to mean "Do no harm to any sentient being", ignores the fundamental, but uncomfortable, fact that in order to live at all, we inevitably do harm to sentient beings. We - some of us, anyway - kill fish or chickens in order to feed ourselves; and even the vegetarians and vegans among us are, directly or indirectly, responsible for the deaths of innumerable other creatures. Think of the grubs and caterpillars that must die to bring the vegetables and fruit to your tables, or the rats and mice that are killed to prevent them devouring your grains and your soybeans. Death is an integral part of life; it won't go away - though we, inevitably, will, eventually.

Also, the Rede does not prohibit us from self defence, or defence of those we have chosen to love. If I, or my wife or a friend, is attacked, by a human or an animal, if necessary my response will in all probability involve violence - with whatever weapon I can lay my hands on - I'll accept responsibility for what happens, and let the Karmic chips, if any, fall where they may.

It's often said that "You're not permitted to change another person's life path." Well, I'm sorry, but if someone's coming at me with a knife, I'm going to do my very best to change his life path, by whatever means necessary - and no regrets.

The same, of course, is said of healing. "You shouldn't heal someone without their permission, because you'd be changing their life path." I submit that this is a precept that can't always be followed; I agree with Firesong here. Consider the following: you receive a phone call that an elderly relative is seriously ill in hospital. When you get to her bedside, she's unconscious, but breathing; do you not take her hand and give her healing energy because she hasn't asked for it? Or, you're walking by a river and you see someone, a young girl perhaps, floating face down in the water, not moving. Do you stand dithering on the river bank, afraid that if you tried to rescue her you'd be "changing her life path"? - Or do you jump in, drag her to the shore, commence CPR and mouth-to-mouth, call an ambulance, and, again, accept responsibility and let the Karmic chips fall where they may?

The Rede, it seems to me, simply asks us to think about, and accept responsibility for, the consequences of any action we might take, positive or negative. No piteous bleatings of "The Devil made me do it!" or "I was only following orders!"

Blessed Be everyone,

Alchymist.
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"Truly I say to you, he who seeks, shall find. And sometimes, he shall wish he hadn't."

Believe nothing: question everything: think for yourself!
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